It's not indicative of my being peddling a conspiracy when all I am saying is that people might not be telling the truth.
A French prosecutor, employed by the state, somebody whose job it is to make blame stick and protect the republic is heading up the investigation.
If that seems impartial to you and we don't get the news from BEA directly (the French safety organisation) then you need to open your eyes a bit wider and ask why a prosecutor is drawing conclusions before the telemetric data is available. He has talked about Lubitz pressing the descent button in the cockpit when no such button exists and there is no data to say so anyway. Have you ever got the impression when people are not quite telling the truth maybe?
There is talk that a data card has gone missing from one of the flight recorders.
The French prosecutor is using edited transcripts of what the voice recorder recrorded. Don't you think this is odd? They have actually said this.
The dirty media loves to defame people and spread mis-information. It's easier of course if people on the receiving end of this are dead. The media is helping to propagate the barbaric myth that people with a mental illness are more likely to be violent than other people and that a very mentally ill person can function completely normally with nobody suspecting a thing and then turn into a homicidal maniac. This is what you see in the movies. People with depression do not kill other people, very very rare and they are more of a danger to themselves. If Lubitz had been so homicidal then he would have flown to the next town and crashed the plane there and not into a mountain. It was completely possible.
So there is no conspiracy but the deflection of any blame away from Lufthansa for taking a fairly remote gamble with a very old plane and for France for allowing it in its airspace without reviewing the situation, given that the plane had done 58K+ out of a maximum of 60K and was still operating showed poor decision-making.
The hard evidence is in the recording and the telemetric data, which nobody but official and corporate bodies have access to. I'm speculating because the 'mad pilot' story is very convenient. As there is hard evidence but it is being controlled then I'm dubious about the role of the French prosecutor. What does a lawyer know about aviation and mental health anyway that an investigator doesn't?
Have a look at Silk Air 185 and the crash of the Russian Concorde to see how pilots are defamed very easily and the role of the media in re-inforcing it. The French authorities lied for many decades about their role in the crash of the latter plane. They made up a story about a photographer dropping a camera into the space in the floor where the control column sits causing loss of control of the plane. The French fireman who actually recvovered the bodies said there three people, the two pilots and engineer in the cockpit and not a fourth person.
Alps air crash
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Milk Tray Man
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
locationsfinder
For someone who claims not to be into conspiracy theories, that's some conspiracy theory!
[quote]He has talked about Lubitz pressing the descent button in the cockpit when no such button exists and there is no data to say so anyway. Have you ever got the impression when people are not quite telling the truth maybe?[/quote]
Errr .... no he hasn't. He's talked about Lubitz pressing the button to lock the door (such a button does exist) and using the on-board systems to reprogram the plane to descend to the minimum height at which the autopilot can fly the thing (100 m if I recall correctly, though it may be a bit more or less).
[quote]There is talk that a data card has gone missing from one of the flight recorders.[/quote]
No. They haven't found it yet (only the casing, which was said to be very badly damaged). Which is not the same thing as what you are implying.
[quote]The French prosecutor is using edited transcripts of what the voice recorder recrorded. Don't you think this is odd? They have actually said this.[/quote]
Why is it odd? This happens after a lot of air crashes. Edited transcripts or summaries are initally made public, with the full transcripts coming later (weeks, months, years).
[quote]The dirty media loves to defame people and spread mis-information. It's easier of course if people on the receiving end of this are dead. The media is helping to propagate the barbaric myth that people with a mental illness are more likely to be violent than other people and that a very mentally ill person can function completely normally with nobody suspecting a thing and then turn into a homicidal maniac. This is what you see in the movies. People with depression do not kill other people, very very rare and they are more of a danger to themselves. [/quote]
Well first off there have been several documented cases throughout the world of pilots committing suicide by crashing airliners. So you are wrong on that score.
And secondly you're talking about "the dirty media" as if it is one homgeneous Borg-like collective. Presumably you're referring to the "Western" media (conspiracy theorists routinely regard the "Western" media as the most evil and corrupt of course). The problem you have here though is that the wider international media and even the "alternative" media online is saying much the same thing.
It's entirely possible of course that CT sites like "Beyond Top Secret" (or whatever it's called) are pushing your line. But a fortnight ago they were also telling us that a giant asteroid was about to hit us (this had all been hushed up, naturally) ...
[quote]If Lubitz had been so homicidal then he would have flown to the next town and crashed the plane there and not into a mountain. It was completely possible.[/quote]
Pure speculation. Far more likely is that when the pilot left the cockpit to take a piss, Lubitz just took the first (and for all he knew only) opportunity, did his thing in the cockpit and the plane just happened to end up where it ended up. It could have gone anywhere. He could not have known at which point the pilot would leave the cockpit. In any case, if he'd have taken it down into some sleepy alpine village you'd probably be on here asking "how come he didn't take it down into a bigger town?" That's the way conspiracy theorists think: Shoot down one of their claims, and they just move the goalposts and invent something else.
[quote]I'm speculating ...[/quote]
Yes - you are! And for all your "speculating", you STILL haven't given us your alternative theory if you think that this one is so nonsensical.
Of course the authorities and the media sometimes get it wrong or lie about things. But that doesn't mean that they lie and get it wrong every time. Keeping an open mind is fine. The downside though is that any old rubbish can just waft in on the breeze. So sure, question as much as you like. But you also have to pay attention to the answers, even if they contradict what you'd like to believe.
[quote]He has talked about Lubitz pressing the descent button in the cockpit when no such button exists and there is no data to say so anyway. Have you ever got the impression when people are not quite telling the truth maybe?[/quote]
Errr .... no he hasn't. He's talked about Lubitz pressing the button to lock the door (such a button does exist) and using the on-board systems to reprogram the plane to descend to the minimum height at which the autopilot can fly the thing (100 m if I recall correctly, though it may be a bit more or less).
[quote]There is talk that a data card has gone missing from one of the flight recorders.[/quote]
No. They haven't found it yet (only the casing, which was said to be very badly damaged). Which is not the same thing as what you are implying.
[quote]The French prosecutor is using edited transcripts of what the voice recorder recrorded. Don't you think this is odd? They have actually said this.[/quote]
Why is it odd? This happens after a lot of air crashes. Edited transcripts or summaries are initally made public, with the full transcripts coming later (weeks, months, years).
[quote]The dirty media loves to defame people and spread mis-information. It's easier of course if people on the receiving end of this are dead. The media is helping to propagate the barbaric myth that people with a mental illness are more likely to be violent than other people and that a very mentally ill person can function completely normally with nobody suspecting a thing and then turn into a homicidal maniac. This is what you see in the movies. People with depression do not kill other people, very very rare and they are more of a danger to themselves. [/quote]
Well first off there have been several documented cases throughout the world of pilots committing suicide by crashing airliners. So you are wrong on that score.
And secondly you're talking about "the dirty media" as if it is one homgeneous Borg-like collective. Presumably you're referring to the "Western" media (conspiracy theorists routinely regard the "Western" media as the most evil and corrupt of course). The problem you have here though is that the wider international media and even the "alternative" media online is saying much the same thing.
It's entirely possible of course that CT sites like "Beyond Top Secret" (or whatever it's called) are pushing your line. But a fortnight ago they were also telling us that a giant asteroid was about to hit us (this had all been hushed up, naturally) ...
[quote]If Lubitz had been so homicidal then he would have flown to the next town and crashed the plane there and not into a mountain. It was completely possible.[/quote]
Pure speculation. Far more likely is that when the pilot left the cockpit to take a piss, Lubitz just took the first (and for all he knew only) opportunity, did his thing in the cockpit and the plane just happened to end up where it ended up. It could have gone anywhere. He could not have known at which point the pilot would leave the cockpit. In any case, if he'd have taken it down into some sleepy alpine village you'd probably be on here asking "how come he didn't take it down into a bigger town?" That's the way conspiracy theorists think: Shoot down one of their claims, and they just move the goalposts and invent something else.
[quote]I'm speculating ...[/quote]
Yes - you are! And for all your "speculating", you STILL haven't given us your alternative theory if you think that this one is so nonsensical.
Of course the authorities and the media sometimes get it wrong or lie about things. But that doesn't mean that they lie and get it wrong every time. Keeping an open mind is fine. The downside though is that any old rubbish can just waft in on the breeze. So sure, question as much as you like. But you also have to pay attention to the answers, even if they contradict what you'd like to believe.
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Milk Tray Man
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Latest
Breaking news tonight: It's now being reported that Lubitz had in the past received treatment for suicidal tendencies, albeit not recently. But of course it could all be a fabrication by "the dirty media" ...
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locationsfinder
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Still no conspiracy....
I never said I had a therory. I just said it was strange that a French and now a German prosecutor were quite so prominent, much more than the actual investigators.
Erm no the French prosecutor was talking about Lubitz pressing the descent button. Check out what he said.
http://news.sky.com/story/1453092/alps- ... troy-plane
I wasn't implying anything, I said the data card had gone missing, nothing implied there at all. It was strange for the French lawyer to be talking about people pressing buttons when no telemetric data was available.
Why not use a complete transcript or play the recording, much easier. Using a transcript implies middle-men at work. Not good.
So how many definite pilot-suicides can you list? You haven't listed any I note.
I gave several good reasons why the authorities might want to blame and defame the pilot this time. Not a conspiracy theory but damage limitation and commercial interests at stake. Quite linear thinking required for that.
The media is a filthy shit-rimmed asshole which spews lies, misinformation and incites hatred and mis-understanding every single day, with very rare exceptions. If you have lived most of your life without realising that it exists to sell disruption at best then you must live in a nice world protected from all that, with respect.
I can't say I'm an expert on the media and how congruent it is with the alternative media, but I have read views similar to my own. Even the other Lutfhansa pilots were doubtful about what the French lawyer has been saying.
If I had been Lubitz I'd have crashed the plane into a school or something, he's supposed to have been turned into a homicidal maniac by his life events and depression so why not do it properly. Haven't you heard of 9/11 then? Yes I'm speculating why he didn't try and take a few more people with him. The door would have held up for a long time I think seeing as it was terrorist-proof. Saying 'pure speculation' does not make a logical contradiction. It means you have nothing to counter what I said with.
Erm no the French prosecutor was talking about Lubitz pressing the descent button. Check out what he said.
http://news.sky.com/story/1453092/alps- ... troy-plane
I wasn't implying anything, I said the data card had gone missing, nothing implied there at all. It was strange for the French lawyer to be talking about people pressing buttons when no telemetric data was available.
Why not use a complete transcript or play the recording, much easier. Using a transcript implies middle-men at work. Not good.
So how many definite pilot-suicides can you list? You haven't listed any I note.
I gave several good reasons why the authorities might want to blame and defame the pilot this time. Not a conspiracy theory but damage limitation and commercial interests at stake. Quite linear thinking required for that.
The media is a filthy shit-rimmed asshole which spews lies, misinformation and incites hatred and mis-understanding every single day, with very rare exceptions. If you have lived most of your life without realising that it exists to sell disruption at best then you must live in a nice world protected from all that, with respect.
I can't say I'm an expert on the media and how congruent it is with the alternative media, but I have read views similar to my own. Even the other Lutfhansa pilots were doubtful about what the French lawyer has been saying.
If I had been Lubitz I'd have crashed the plane into a school or something, he's supposed to have been turned into a homicidal maniac by his life events and depression so why not do it properly. Haven't you heard of 9/11 then? Yes I'm speculating why he didn't try and take a few more people with him. The door would have held up for a long time I think seeing as it was terrorist-proof. Saying 'pure speculation' does not make a logical contradiction. It means you have nothing to counter what I said with.
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locationsfinder
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Stitch up!!
I never said I had a theory. The total bollocks I was talking about is the unlikely scenario of a man who may have had his problems but was not debilitated by the severe mental illness he was said to have been suffering from, well enough to do his job with nobody saying a word about it until the opportunity to carry out a death/murder wish. It's not impossible but it almost never happens in real life and sounds like something thought of by somebody with a layman's or lawyer's understanding of mental health issues. People who do things like that are more than likely suffering from an organic disease like a brain tumour or a reaction to medication.
I am certain the recording will never actually be played in public, not even at a hearing. The edited transcripts will be rubber-stamped as evidence because they came via a lawyer and used.
I am certain the recording will never actually be played in public, not even at a hearing. The edited transcripts will be rubber-stamped as evidence because they came via a lawyer and used.
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locationsfinder
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Latest
Being suicidal doesn't mean that you will turn into a mass-murderer. Implausible that nobody noticed any deterioration in his behaviour or performance at work until suddenly one day he snapped and did what he did. It's not impossible but very very unlikely, feeds off fear and ignorance about mentally ill people and is just a shade too convenient really. Everybody has now forgotten about the clapped-out plane they were flying in.
Speaking of the alternative media, I have been reading about explanations which range from mind-control, to remote-control of the plane, terrorism and even that the plane was shot down by the military by accident. All I was saying that the French prosecutor who is trained and employed to distort facts on a daily basis has been doing so in this instance. It's his job to fit people up.
Speaking of the alternative media, I have been reading about explanations which range from mind-control, to remote-control of the plane, terrorism and even that the plane was shot down by the military by accident. All I was saying that the French prosecutor who is trained and employed to distort facts on a daily basis has been doing so in this instance. It's his job to fit people up.
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Milk Tray Man
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Still no conspiracy....
locationsfinder wrote:
[quote]I never said I had a therory. I just said it was strange that a French and now a German prosecutor were quite so prominent, much more than the actual investigators.[/quote]
If foul play is susepcted, you would expect the prosecutors to be more involved. Nothing strange there.
[quote]Erm no the French prosecutor was talking about Lubitz pressing the descent button. Check out what he said.[/quote]
You can't even be bothered to read your own link properly. Quote:
He said: "We assume the (captain) went to the loo or something. The co-pilot is on his own in charge of the plane, and it is while he is alone that he uses the flight monitoring system which starts the descent of the plane." The flight monitoring system cannot be accidentally triggered, he explained.
Nowhere there does it quote the prosecutor as saying that Lubitz "pressed the decent button". The flight monitoring system is not a "decent button". The only reference to a "decent button" comes from the lazy hack who wrote the article.
[quote]So how many definite pilot-suicides can you list? You haven't listed any I note.It was strange for the French lawyer to be talking about people pressing buttons when no telemetric data was available.[/quote]
List of confirmed or suspected pilot suicides here:
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03 ... by-pilots/
Not a common occurrence at all (thankfully) but it does happen occasionally:
[quote]It was strange for the French lawyer to be talking about people pressing buttons when no telemetric data was available.[/quote]
They don't need any telemetric data in that particular case. There is a button on the controls that is used to lock and unlock the cockpit to prevent access from outside. The fact that (a) the pilot was screaming for Lubitz to "open the damn door" and (b) that Lubitz was breathing normally the whole time but was ignoring the pilot in all probability points to Lubitz having locked the pilot out by pressing that button. Telemetric data would probably confirm it beyond all doubt but it's hardly an unreasonable conclusion to draw given what is known is it? If you have an alternative suggestion, once again I'm sure that the investigators would be delighted to hear it.
[quote]I gave several good reasons why the authorities might want to blame and defame the pilot this time. Not a conspiracy theory but damage limitation and commercial interests at stake. Quite linear thinking required for that.[/quote]
Of course there are commercial interests, but if (as it appears) he took the thing down, all the stuff you bang on about above like it being an aircraft approaching the end of its service life is irrelevant anyway. Quite aside from the fact that "approaching the end" isn't the same as "past the end" and it had apparently had all the necessary checks, maintenance etc. in any case
[quote]The media is a filthy shit-rimmed asshole which spews lies, misinformation and incites hatred and mis-understanding every single day, with very rare exceptions. If you have lived most of your life without realising that it exists to sell disruption at best then you must live in a nice world protected from all that, with respect.[/quote]
Spoken like a true conspiracy theorist. But that notwithstanding, what part of "Of course the authorities and the media sometimes get it wrong or lie about things. But that doesn't mean that they lie and get it wrong every time" are you struggling to understand?
[quote]If I had been Lubitz I'd have crashed the plane into a school or something, he's supposed to have been turned into a homicidal maniac by his life events and depression so why not do it properly.[/quote]
This may come as a shock, but not everybody thinks like you.
[quote]The total bollocks I was talking about is the unlikely scenario of a man who may have had his problems but was not debilitated by the severe mental illness he was said to have been suffering from, well enough to do his job with nobody saying a word about it until the opportunity to carry out a death/murder wish. It's not impossible but it almost never happens in real life and sounds like something thought of by somebody with a layman's or lawyer's understanding of mental health issues. People who do things like that are more than likely suffering from an organic disease like a brain tumour or a reaction to medication.[/quote]
Hidden depression is very common (Google is your friend if you want to learn more).
End of the day though, it basically boils down to one question: Do you believe that Lubitz crashed the plane deliberately or don't you?
[quote]I never said I had a therory. I just said it was strange that a French and now a German prosecutor were quite so prominent, much more than the actual investigators.[/quote]
If foul play is susepcted, you would expect the prosecutors to be more involved. Nothing strange there.
[quote]Erm no the French prosecutor was talking about Lubitz pressing the descent button. Check out what he said.[/quote]
You can't even be bothered to read your own link properly. Quote:
He said: "We assume the (captain) went to the loo or something. The co-pilot is on his own in charge of the plane, and it is while he is alone that he uses the flight monitoring system which starts the descent of the plane." The flight monitoring system cannot be accidentally triggered, he explained.
Nowhere there does it quote the prosecutor as saying that Lubitz "pressed the decent button". The flight monitoring system is not a "decent button". The only reference to a "decent button" comes from the lazy hack who wrote the article.
[quote]So how many definite pilot-suicides can you list? You haven't listed any I note.It was strange for the French lawyer to be talking about people pressing buttons when no telemetric data was available.[/quote]
List of confirmed or suspected pilot suicides here:
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03 ... by-pilots/
Not a common occurrence at all (thankfully) but it does happen occasionally:
[quote]It was strange for the French lawyer to be talking about people pressing buttons when no telemetric data was available.[/quote]
They don't need any telemetric data in that particular case. There is a button on the controls that is used to lock and unlock the cockpit to prevent access from outside. The fact that (a) the pilot was screaming for Lubitz to "open the damn door" and (b) that Lubitz was breathing normally the whole time but was ignoring the pilot in all probability points to Lubitz having locked the pilot out by pressing that button. Telemetric data would probably confirm it beyond all doubt but it's hardly an unreasonable conclusion to draw given what is known is it? If you have an alternative suggestion, once again I'm sure that the investigators would be delighted to hear it.
[quote]I gave several good reasons why the authorities might want to blame and defame the pilot this time. Not a conspiracy theory but damage limitation and commercial interests at stake. Quite linear thinking required for that.[/quote]
Of course there are commercial interests, but if (as it appears) he took the thing down, all the stuff you bang on about above like it being an aircraft approaching the end of its service life is irrelevant anyway. Quite aside from the fact that "approaching the end" isn't the same as "past the end" and it had apparently had all the necessary checks, maintenance etc. in any case
[quote]The media is a filthy shit-rimmed asshole which spews lies, misinformation and incites hatred and mis-understanding every single day, with very rare exceptions. If you have lived most of your life without realising that it exists to sell disruption at best then you must live in a nice world protected from all that, with respect.[/quote]
Spoken like a true conspiracy theorist. But that notwithstanding, what part of "Of course the authorities and the media sometimes get it wrong or lie about things. But that doesn't mean that they lie and get it wrong every time" are you struggling to understand?
[quote]If I had been Lubitz I'd have crashed the plane into a school or something, he's supposed to have been turned into a homicidal maniac by his life events and depression so why not do it properly.[/quote]
This may come as a shock, but not everybody thinks like you.
[quote]The total bollocks I was talking about is the unlikely scenario of a man who may have had his problems but was not debilitated by the severe mental illness he was said to have been suffering from, well enough to do his job with nobody saying a word about it until the opportunity to carry out a death/murder wish. It's not impossible but it almost never happens in real life and sounds like something thought of by somebody with a layman's or lawyer's understanding of mental health issues. People who do things like that are more than likely suffering from an organic disease like a brain tumour or a reaction to medication.[/quote]
Hidden depression is very common (Google is your friend if you want to learn more).
End of the day though, it basically boils down to one question: Do you believe that Lubitz crashed the plane deliberately or don't you?