Did Tony Blair REALLY have a choice over Iraq?

[max_tranmere]

I see. For some reason I thought it was Anthony Eden.

[Sam Slater]

Half of Europe was nearly destroyed twice in the space of 30 years in the first half of the 20th century. Germany and Japan were flattened and rebuilt within a decade.... we managed to turn it around quite quickly. Some former colonies didn't become worse off after we left, which tells me that it's more about the culture of the people that determines how well you do.

[David Johnson]

Or alternatively Max, would you prefer the United Kingdom to be invaded by a coalition of Muslim Countries resulting directly or indirectly in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent UK citizens who had no desire to be invaded by Muslim countries. And as result of that invasion, the UK then totally collapsed with thousands dying from civil war and sectarian killings.

[David Johnson]

"I've read all of your comment, you seem quite knowledgeable "

Persisent? Yes. Knowledgeable? I don't think so.

I suppose members of all political parties coming out subsequently with the view that the Iraq War was a disaster; the overwhelming number of independent commentators agreeing with them; the evidence that you Max so clearly can see, but seems to merely pass Mr Slater by - well all those people could be wrong and Mr Slater the voice of well argued reason.

I don't think so, somehow.

[David Johnson]

You are clearly correct in your view. First the analogy with the UK, Mr Slater argues

" That you'd prefer to live as a serf or slave as long as the despot in charge does a decent job of keeping law and order?"

Unbelievable. There's about 3-400 people a month being kllled a month in Baghdad alone




"It seems these people think their own liberty is far more valuable than an Iraqi's. I think that is a shame."

As you rightly point out to Slater to argue that liberty has been something to do with the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent results looking at today's Iraq is laughable.

The thing to get about Slater's views is that he has the same, "messianic", totally unshakeable, fact defying views on the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, the action in Libya etc as the worst extremist beliefs in the fundamentalism of the Koran.

He is in fact a messianic Islamophobic. He has simply replaced the one sided view of the radical Islamic fundamentalist with his "messianic" views on Islam.

His views are both sinister and dangerous because he trots them out for every Muslim country intervention that has taken place and every proposed intervention against a Muslim country such as Libya that even the BRitish government backs away from

An anti-Islamphobic hawk of the worst kind. ANd despite all these interventions Max, do you feel any safer on the streets of London despite this huge loss of innocent civilians and army lives?
--

[Sam Slater]

And, as David kindly points out, Iraqis are killing Iraqis continually over their version of a fairy tale. I don't reckon much to this fairy tale and think the Iraqis would be better off without it. David likes to defend the fairy tale they're murdering each other over (or at least attack people who don't like the fairy tale).

So who's really on the Iraqi people's side here?

And remember to put his 400 people per month killed into context with Saddam's 70-125 killed per day average over 24 years.

[David Johnson]

This is more Slater "messianic" bilge.

1. WHat is this, an X factor competition? The direct and indirect deaths resulting from the Allied invasion were less than Hussain, therefore it's hunky dory. We go to the next round. Unfuckingbelievable. Of course to "messianic" Mr Slater, when Iraqi Muslims get killed by Saddam this is disgusting and requires Allied invasion. When the Allies kill Iraqi Muslims this is "collateral damage".

2. THe figure I give is for Baghdad only. The report suggests that over a thousand were killed in several months this year.

3. What the report Slater links to includes 500,000 who were killed in the war with Iran which had a lot similarities with the trench warfare of the 1st World War.
Whatever the pros and cons of the war, this is a bit like suggesting that Cameron actually took out and shot the British soldiers killed in Afghanistan in the last few years.

More piffle from Slater.

[Sam Slater]

As you can see, Max, David get's irritable when it comes to defending Iraqis' right to live in a democracy. He wants to keep them under authoritarian rule.

He'd rather Saddam kill them than them kill each other over religion because his agenda is to defend that religion and their actions kinda piss on his fire and support my views on it.

And his views that 500,000 Iraqis died in the Iran/Iraq war shouldn't be counted because they weren't civilians really shows what he thinks of Iraqis. He fails to tell you that nearly all of those soldiers killed were a rag-tag army of forced conscripts that didn't have much choice. Under those circumstances I make no apology in including then in civilian deaths.

[David Johnson]

"And his views that 500,000 Iraqis died in the Iran/Iraq war shouldn't be counted because they weren't civilians really shows what he thinks of Iraqis. He fails to tell you that nearly all of those soldiers killed were a rag-tag army of forced conscripts that didn't have much choice. Under those circumstances I make no apology in including then in civilian deaths."

Unlike you, I am not demanding apologies from whoever disagrees with me. !wink!

The point to make is that the people who died in the Iraqi war were a direct result of the initial war and the subsequent total breakdown of law and order once the Allies destroyed the Iraqi infrastructure after the fall of Hussein and replaced him with a sectarian SHia leader.

How do you know that they were all "a rag tag army of forced conscripts"? I could use your logic to describe Churchill as being responsible for the "rag tag army of forced conscripts" involved in World War II who died.

I remember my Dad telling me he was totally pissed off being called up to fight in Korea because he was a reservist. Could he have been described as murdered by Clement Attlee if he had been killed? I do not think so.

Like I said, you are the nearest to forum has to a "messianic, Islamic fundamentalist-like true believer.

!wink!

[Sam Slater]

....and as everyone already knows, because I've mentioned it enough, I've never defended the post-war plans of the western allies. I've always spoken about the principle of removing a murderous tyrant that has committed genocide on his own people.

The country I was born and raised in signed up to and ratified the Genocide Convention. It is an official declaration that we will, if possible, prevent and punish acts of genocide. Obviously the public doesn't care too much about genocide as long as it's not on their doorstep like Bosnia was and is the reason why Tony Blair had to make up a cock & bull story about WMDs.

If people don't want to punish genocidal regimes then maybe they ought to lobby their MPs and call for us to pull out of the Genocide Convention altogether.

And as everyone can see, I think for the 3rd time today David has called me 'messianic' used in a derogatory fashion. Given the Jewish connotations and taking it from a man that is constantly defensive of Islam, I find this a little uncomfortable. We live in times where anti-semitism has risen sharply in Europe. This not long after wrongfully accusing me of being an Islamic apostate. Basically, insults zealous Pakistani villagers use to get revenge on others for past arguments and disagreements. There's a pattern emerging here and it's worrisome. If it's come to this I might as well retaliate with little quips like 'Jihadi Johnson' or the 'Blackpool bomber'.