Iraq

[David Johnson]

1. Launch an illegal war in Iraq based on a dodgy dossier.
2. Kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis directly or indirectly from your invasion.
3. Invade in 2003 and in December 2011 the US announces the end of the war and all American troops leave. The war has lasted longer than either of the world wars.
4. In May 2014, 800 people die in explosions in Iraq as part of a regular monthly slaughter.
5. The second biggest city in Iraq is taken over by the Islamic fundamentalists and chaos occurs. The Iraqi army runs away.
6. The US announces that this event is a threat to the whole region.

Thanks, Blair and Bush. A right fucking mess! Pity you didn't listen to the advice of your own security services, Blair.

[Arginald Valleywater]

Blair will be wanking himself silly. More wars mean more business for his friends in the Senate....

[cockneygeezer2009]

"Thanks, Blair and Bush. A right fucking mess! Pity you didn't listen to the advice of your own security services, Blair."

That's warmongering Christian fundamentalists for you. Blair was also warned the war would create more Islamic fundamentalists in this country. No problem for Blair. He's protected by our security services while the rest of us cross our fingers we're not in the wrong place when the nutters (he helped to create) cause an atrocity.

[Porn Baron]

I'm getting rather confused.
Are we supporting and arming them in Syria and fighting them in Iraq?
Do we know what we are doing?

[Sam Slater]

It's rather patronising to foreigners to assume everything they do is a consequence of the west. It suggest everything in the world revolves around us and everyone in the world reacts to us. It's viewing them as animals reacting on instinct.

It's also unhealthy for us to constantly blame ourselves for everything bad that happens in the world. It's not unlike those religious monks who whip themselves all day or a man that gets his kicks out of being cuckolded.

No one has yet mentioned that these militants have been invading Iraq, from inside Syria for over a year now. Continual raids over the border and then fleeing back into Syria when the Iraqi army chases them away have gradually worn down the Iraqis. No doubt this is something Assad has encouraged to divert attention for what his happening in his own country.

Why hasn't David, you or Arg picked up on Syria's part in this? Imagine if we gave refuge to mercenary armies who make quick raids into France and back for years. Imagine how we'd be outraged at any British government that allowed this. Well, this is what's happening with Syria and yet no condemnation at all from anyone. Why are so many people ignoring, or tolerating, actions by 'johnny foreigner' that we wouldn't ignore/tolerate about ourselves or our more economically developed neighbours and allies?

Do we hold ourselves to much higher standards because we are better people than they are? Is there an element of subconscious racism at play here? It would account for the patronisation (we make them do it) and inconsistency in how we judge and condemn similar actions (we can't expect them to live up to our moral standards).

Again......if you think it's quite thoughtful and understanding of you to find a way of blaming your own nation for what less economically developed nations do wrong, imagine if you took that attitude when a developing nation does something right. Too many people on the left are so eager to praise any non-western nation for the advancements they make, and would be horrified at taking any credit for it, but as soon as something goes bad, they can't wait to twist, turn and jump through hoops to find a way of taking responsibility away from those same nations and pile the blame on themselves.

This attitude of self-blame conveys the opposite of what the people with this attitude think it shows. It hints at a subliminal feeling of superiority of the 'other'. "We should know better. It's our fault." Tariq and Aziz trying to kill each other is only a consequence of what we've done. They're just two hamsters in a cage gnawing each other's eyes out and it's because we poked them into a frenzy through the bars and watched it all unfold. It's all about us.

[Arginald Valleywater]

Interesting how Iraq has gone totally tits up just as the West pulls out of Afghanistan....hmmmm.....a new old enemy for America....Obama has done sweet FA at home so another go at blasting Arabs should do the US economy a favour....

[David Johnson]

I think both of you make good points.

I guess where I am coming from is:

1. Iraq in terms of its geographical coverage is an artificial construct of the British, without taking into account the politics of the different ethnic and religious groups in the country, in particular those of the Kurds and the Assyrians to the north and the Sunnis and Shias.

2. Since that was done at the end of the 1st world war, there is a bloody history of coup and uprising until a strong dictator, Saddam Hussein came along and although there were still uprisings, cruelly put down and wars against the likes of Iran and Kuwait, the country of Iraq continued to function.

3. After the deposing of Saddam Hussein and the destruction of the control infrastructure that had kept Saddam Hussein in power for decades, the country soon fell apart into warring factions. There seemed to be a bizarre idea in place with the allies that once Saddam had gone, we would give them the wonders of democracy and Iraq would continue to function.

4. Alas this did not happen and in spite of the Allies being involved for many years providing troops and support, the country is on the verge of collapse with apparently half million fleeing from Mosul alone.

And the moral of the story? Sometimes the lesser of two evils is preferable even if that evil is horrific. I may be wrong, but I suspect that in the light of their country falling apart, a majority of Iraqis would look back to the time of Saddam Hussein as one in which at least their country held together in a semblance of peace.

[David Johnson]

Blair and Bush endorsed the appointment of Shia Prime Minister, Maliki in 2006 and he is still around. Apparently he has been running a largely sectarian government aimed at supporting the Shia.

As a result, many of the Sunni population now support the uprising that has the fundamentalists at its core.

[cockneygeezer2009]

I think the wars in Iraq helped shape what's happening in Iraq today. Similar to Yugoslavia. When Tito (not the one in the Jacksons) went the whole region descended into chaos. Similar to Iraq.

[Robches]

A good point. Iraq is as artificial a country as Yugoslavia was. There is no logical reason why a state cobbled together out of Shia and Sunni Arabs, and Kurds, should exist, it was merely created, like Yugoslavia, out of the chaos after the First World War. It might be better for all concerned if the various peoples were left to run their own states. That is probably the solution in Syria too, which was also an artificial creation after WWI.