Apparently there has been a number of Ofsted reports into schools in Birmingham which criticise the schools for going too far in spreading Islamic culture to the exclusion of other faiths.
Personally, I see absolutely no reason why we should have faith schools in Britain whether they be Jewish, Catholic or Islamic. Schools should be emphasising what joins kids together, not what separates them. We have all seen the results of religious segregation in places such as Northern Ireland.
Any attempts to unduly influence kids in one faith as opposed to others should be dealt with promptly and if need be, closed down or at very least put into special measures where they get much more closely monitored.
Birmingham schools "Trojan horse" plan
-
David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Birmingham schools "Trojan horse" plan
Not going off on an anti-Muslim rant, but neither Jewish nor Catholic schools have had a problem with extremism or separatism. And you tend to get a better education at those schools than you do a state comprehensive. The Muslim spokesman on the Andrew Neil show last week said that she sends her sons to a Catholic school.
-
cockneygeezer2009
- Posts: 516
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Birmingham schools "Trojan horse" plan
As an atheist can't understand why there are faith schools. Faith should be taught at home. Faith is about belief not scientific fact. When i was a kid my school used to have fights with the Catholic school down the road. Faith schools cause hate and intolerance regardless of religion.
The harder you cum. The more you enjoy it.
-
Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: For the record..
Just so people know...(because the few people I've spoken to about this seem to just assume...) these Birmingham schools aren't designated faith schools. Just want to put that out there. They are regular secular schools that just happen to have a majority of pupils who are Muslim.
I've set out my views on faith schools on here for years. I hate them. I hated Labour actively promoting them when they were in government and I hate the Tories and Lib Dems in carrying this on now they're in. Religion should be taught in schools as a subject.....but not promoted and should have no influence on what/how children are taught. It's important, in my view, that if we want to create a multicultural society without fear, ignorance and mistrust of the 'other', we must at least give the kids a chance to mix with one another and grow up together. And, of course, religion is a load of guff. It's no different to having schools based on Pagan gods or Scientology.
We also don't know if this 'plot' has merit. Rumours are the original complaint letter was a hoax. We shall see. Considering the schools aren't faith schools, it makes this plot even more serious and sinister if it turns out to be true. It means not even secular schools are safe and my guess is that similar things could be happening up and down the country. But it's clear that the religious know society is turning it's back on faith and they know that their bread and butter is with the kids. Get them on board early enough and it keeps them going.
What's also dangerous about faith schools is this assumption that faith schools get better results. They do, but only because they are usually better funded, in more affluent areas and can attract better teachers. Do we really want to create a scenario where not only are we segregating children on their parents' religious beliefs, we're also creating a tiered system where the more religious you are the better education you will get? Do we really want schools to pressurise parents into converting to one form of Christianity over another just to give their kids a better start in life? Religions holding people to ransom over their kids' education is abhorrent and I'd like to see one of the main parties take a stand against this rather than give in to the minority of people in this country that still believe in fairy stories.
I've set out my views on faith schools on here for years. I hate them. I hated Labour actively promoting them when they were in government and I hate the Tories and Lib Dems in carrying this on now they're in. Religion should be taught in schools as a subject.....but not promoted and should have no influence on what/how children are taught. It's important, in my view, that if we want to create a multicultural society without fear, ignorance and mistrust of the 'other', we must at least give the kids a chance to mix with one another and grow up together. And, of course, religion is a load of guff. It's no different to having schools based on Pagan gods or Scientology.
We also don't know if this 'plot' has merit. Rumours are the original complaint letter was a hoax. We shall see. Considering the schools aren't faith schools, it makes this plot even more serious and sinister if it turns out to be true. It means not even secular schools are safe and my guess is that similar things could be happening up and down the country. But it's clear that the religious know society is turning it's back on faith and they know that their bread and butter is with the kids. Get them on board early enough and it keeps them going.
What's also dangerous about faith schools is this assumption that faith schools get better results. They do, but only because they are usually better funded, in more affluent areas and can attract better teachers. Do we really want to create a scenario where not only are we segregating children on their parents' religious beliefs, we're also creating a tiered system where the more religious you are the better education you will get? Do we really want schools to pressurise parents into converting to one form of Christianity over another just to give their kids a better start in life? Religions holding people to ransom over their kids' education is abhorrent and I'd like to see one of the main parties take a stand against this rather than give in to the minority of people in this country that still believe in fairy stories.
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
Re: For the record..
What's also dangerous about faith schools is this assumption that faith schools get better results. They do ? Then it's not an assumption, it's a fact.
I think the last census said that something like 52% of people in this country regarded themselves as Christian ? that's not a minority.
I think the last census said that something like 52% of people in this country regarded themselves as Christian ? that's not a minority.
Re: For the record..
Sam Slater wrote:
It's important, in
> my view, that if we want to create a multicultural society
What makes you think that the majority of people in this country do want that?
It's important, in
> my view, that if we want to create a multicultural society
What makes you think that the majority of people in this country do want that?
-
Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: For the record..
[quote]What's also dangerous about faith schools is this assumption that faith schools get better results. They do ? Then it's not an assumption, it's a fact.[/quote]
The 'assumption' faith schools get better results because they are faith schools, not because of other factors like funding and the social class the pupils in faith schools come from.
[quote]I think the last census said that something like 52% of people in this country regarded themselves as Christian ? that's not a minority.[/quote]
Yes......Christian as in culturally. Less than 1 in 10 go to church at least once a week or more. How many people do you know who call themselves 'Christian' on a census form but outside weddings and christenings never go to church or have a bible in the house? And of that 1 in 10 who do attend regular church service, how many are immigrants from Nigeria and Eastern Europe, where church attendance is much higher (87% for Nigerians and 63% for Poles). There are nearly a million people in the UK who attend Catholic services. There are over half a million Poles. If 63% of those attend church regularly, that would account for nearly a 3rd of regular Catholic church attendees in the UK. Of that 1 in 10 regular church goers, immigrants could easily make up a quarter in total. That could take the real numbers to something like 7%. That could be easily considered a minority.
I do not know a single person who goes to Church regularly......or even irregularly. What percentage of your friends and family or work colleagues attend regular church services or even has a Bible in the house (outside just sitting on a bookshelf)?
The 'assumption' faith schools get better results because they are faith schools, not because of other factors like funding and the social class the pupils in faith schools come from.
[quote]I think the last census said that something like 52% of people in this country regarded themselves as Christian ? that's not a minority.[/quote]
Yes......Christian as in culturally. Less than 1 in 10 go to church at least once a week or more. How many people do you know who call themselves 'Christian' on a census form but outside weddings and christenings never go to church or have a bible in the house? And of that 1 in 10 who do attend regular church service, how many are immigrants from Nigeria and Eastern Europe, where church attendance is much higher (87% for Nigerians and 63% for Poles). There are nearly a million people in the UK who attend Catholic services. There are over half a million Poles. If 63% of those attend church regularly, that would account for nearly a 3rd of regular Catholic church attendees in the UK. Of that 1 in 10 regular church goers, immigrants could easily make up a quarter in total. That could take the real numbers to something like 7%. That could be easily considered a minority.
I do not know a single person who goes to Church regularly......or even irregularly. What percentage of your friends and family or work colleagues attend regular church services or even has a Bible in the house (outside just sitting on a bookshelf)?
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
Re: For the record..
Sam Slater wrote:
> [quote]What's also dangerous about faith schools is this
> assumption that faith schools get better results. They do ?
> Then it's not an assumption, it's a fact.[/quote]
>
> The 'assumption' faith schools get better results
> because they are faith schools, not because of other
> factors like funding and the social class the pupils in faith
> schools come from.
Whatever the reason, faith schools do give children a better education.
>
> [quote]I think the last census said that something like 52% of
> people in this country regarded themselves as Christian ?
> that's not a minority.[/quote]
>
> Yes......Christian as in culturally. Less than 1 in 10 go to
> church at least once a week or more. How many people do you
> know who call themselves 'Christian' on a census form but
> outside weddings and christenings never go to church or have a
> bible in the house? And of that 1 in 10 who do attend regular
> church service, how many are immigrants from Nigeria and
> Eastern Europe, where church attendance is much higher (87% for
> Nigerians and 63% for Poles). There are nearly a million people
> in the UK who attend Catholic services. There are over half a
> million Poles. If 63% of those attend church regularly, that
> would account for nearly a 3rd of regular Catholic church
> attendees in the UK. Of that 1 in 10 regular church goers,
> immigrants could easily make up a quarter in total. That could
> take the real numbers to something like 7%. That could be
> easily considered a minority.
>
> I do not know a single person who goes to Church
> regularly......or even irregularly. What percentage of your
> friends and family or work colleagues attend regular church
> services or even has a Bible in the house (outside just sitting
> on a bookshelf)?
>
Quite a few. I went to a Jesuit school.
> [quote]What's also dangerous about faith schools is this
> assumption that faith schools get better results. They do ?
> Then it's not an assumption, it's a fact.[/quote]
>
> The 'assumption' faith schools get better results
> because they are faith schools, not because of other
> factors like funding and the social class the pupils in faith
> schools come from.
Whatever the reason, faith schools do give children a better education.
>
> [quote]I think the last census said that something like 52% of
> people in this country regarded themselves as Christian ?
> that's not a minority.[/quote]
>
> Yes......Christian as in culturally. Less than 1 in 10 go to
> church at least once a week or more. How many people do you
> know who call themselves 'Christian' on a census form but
> outside weddings and christenings never go to church or have a
> bible in the house? And of that 1 in 10 who do attend regular
> church service, how many are immigrants from Nigeria and
> Eastern Europe, where church attendance is much higher (87% for
> Nigerians and 63% for Poles). There are nearly a million people
> in the UK who attend Catholic services. There are over half a
> million Poles. If 63% of those attend church regularly, that
> would account for nearly a 3rd of regular Catholic church
> attendees in the UK. Of that 1 in 10 regular church goers,
> immigrants could easily make up a quarter in total. That could
> take the real numbers to something like 7%. That could be
> easily considered a minority.
>
> I do not know a single person who goes to Church
> regularly......or even irregularly. What percentage of your
> friends and family or work colleagues attend regular church
> services or even has a Bible in the house (outside just sitting
> on a bookshelf)?
>
Quite a few. I went to a Jesuit school.
-
Sam Slater
- Posts: 11624
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: For the record..
[quote]Whatever the reason, faith schools do give children a better education.[/quote]
The 'reason' is important because it shows that them being a faith school is just coincidental. If those faith schools had the same funding, same teachers and same pupils they have now, but the schools were called 'Jedi Schools', then would you conclude that watching Star Wars films and a belief in 'the force' gave children a better education?
This is about funding, the social demographic of the pupils and how both together attract the best teachers. It's not about 'faith'.
If faith schools were poorly funded and only built in and around poor council estates the results they'd get would be no different from non-faith schools that are in those places now.
[quote]Quite a few. I went to a Jesuit school.[/quote]
Quite a few? That's not very committal. I bet out of everyone you know, you could count the number of regular church attendees on one hand......two hands if you're the fucking vicar !laugh!
The 'reason' is important because it shows that them being a faith school is just coincidental. If those faith schools had the same funding, same teachers and same pupils they have now, but the schools were called 'Jedi Schools', then would you conclude that watching Star Wars films and a belief in 'the force' gave children a better education?
This is about funding, the social demographic of the pupils and how both together attract the best teachers. It's not about 'faith'.
If faith schools were poorly funded and only built in and around poor council estates the results they'd get would be no different from non-faith schools that are in those places now.
[quote]Quite a few. I went to a Jesuit school.[/quote]
Quite a few? That's not very committal. I bet out of everyone you know, you could count the number of regular church attendees on one hand......two hands if you're the fucking vicar !laugh!
[i]I used to spend a lot of time criticizing Islam on here in the noughties - but things are much better now.[/i]
Re: For the record..
Sam Slater wrote:
> [quote]Whatever the reason, faith schools do give children a
> better education.[/quote]
>
> The 'reason' is important because it shows that them being a
> faith school is just coincidental. If those faith schools had
> the same funding, same teachers and same pupils they have now,
> but the schools were called 'Jedi Schools', then would you
> conclude that watching Star Wars films and a belief in 'the
> force' gave children a better education?
>
> This is about funding, the social demographic of the pupils and
> how both together attract the best teachers. It's not about
> 'faith'.
>
> If faith schools were poorly funded and only built in and
> around poor council estates the results they'd get would be no
> different from non-faith schools that are in those places now.
Whether it's coincidence, intelligent design or whatever, faith schools give children a better education. And are you saying that there are no faith schools in poor areas? I can think of one quite near where I'm sitting...
>
> [quote]Quite a few. I went to a Jesuit school.[/quote]
>
> Quite a few? That's not very committal. I bet out of everyone
> you know, you could count the number of regular church
> attendees on one hand......two hands if you're the fucking
> vicar !laugh!
>
Apart from the Vicar of Rome, Catholic churches don't have vicars. They have priests.
> [quote]Whatever the reason, faith schools do give children a
> better education.[/quote]
>
> The 'reason' is important because it shows that them being a
> faith school is just coincidental. If those faith schools had
> the same funding, same teachers and same pupils they have now,
> but the schools were called 'Jedi Schools', then would you
> conclude that watching Star Wars films and a belief in 'the
> force' gave children a better education?
>
> This is about funding, the social demographic of the pupils and
> how both together attract the best teachers. It's not about
> 'faith'.
>
> If faith schools were poorly funded and only built in and
> around poor council estates the results they'd get would be no
> different from non-faith schools that are in those places now.
Whether it's coincidence, intelligent design or whatever, faith schools give children a better education. And are you saying that there are no faith schools in poor areas? I can think of one quite near where I'm sitting...
>
> [quote]Quite a few. I went to a Jesuit school.[/quote]
>
> Quite a few? That's not very committal. I bet out of everyone
> you know, you could count the number of regular church
> attendees on one hand......two hands if you're the fucking
> vicar !laugh!
>
Apart from the Vicar of Rome, Catholic churches don't have vicars. They have priests.