Tony Benn is dead

[Essex Lad]

David Johnson wrote:
>
> An MP for 50 years
Around 47 years, which is no mean feat.

> in power for decades
18 months as Postmaster-General
A shade under four years as Minister of Technology
15 months as Secretary of State for Industry
A shade under four years as Secretary of State for Energy=
Slightly over ten years, certainly not "decades". Nowhere near.

> a first rate political diarist
Alongside Alan Clark and Alastair Campbell

> at the heart of the Labour Party for decades
And ensured the party stayed out of power from 1979 to 1997. His old colleagues, who knew him well, were often highly critical about his unreliability and self-righteousness. Michael Foot, whose leadership was wrecked by Benn?s repeated challenges to his authority, once said that he was ?someone not to be trusted?. Wilson commented that Benn ?immatured with age?. His policies were in large part responsible for the rise of Militant Tendency and the formation of the SDP. Denis Healey told Newsnight: ?He was in my view an artificial Leftie. He was trying to prove he was working class, he was very ashamed of his upper class background. There was quite a lot of bitterness because I felt he did the party enormous damage at that time, by the way he behaved, not just his views. He was extremely rude and offensive in what he said.?

, a brilliant speaker
Can't argue with that.

who said what he believed and
> believed what he said.
Up to a point, Lord Copper. He began his political career as a technocratic moderniser, overseeing the opening of the Post Office Tower, the birth of Concorde and the creation of British Leyland. Yet he evolved into the champion of hard-Left militancy, arguing for a siege economy, unchecked union power and the nationalisation of Britain?s businesses. He proclaimed that Yugoslavia was a role model for society that we should emulate. In a diary entry on the death in 1976 of China?s mass murdering Mao Tse-tung, one of the worst tyrants the world has ever known, Benn wrote: ?He will undoubtedly be regarded as one of the greatest ? if not the greatest ? figures of the 20th century.?

[David Johnson]

Admittedly, it is a slight exaggeration on my part to say "in power for decades" However it is true to say that his time in office spanned a period of decades.

Secondly in the interests of accuracy you have missed out the year he spent as Chairman of the Labour Party.

Thirdly, I am rather disappointed that you did not break down his time in office to number of days etc.

!wink!

[David Johnson]

"In a diary entry on the death in 1976 of China?s mass murdering Mao Tse-tung, one of the worst tyrants the world has ever known, Benn wrote: ?He will undoubtedly be regarded as one of the greatest ? if not the greatest ? figures of the 20th century.?

This strikes me as a typical tabloid newspaper type of statement. What tabloids do is trawl through quotes from left wing politicians and selectively pick quotes which do not represent the totality of that person's perception of another leader e.g Mao.

For example I can include another Benn quote "

If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: "What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?" If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

to illustrate that above all else he believed in democratic systems of government.

[frankthring]

Benn had strong views, many of them far from popular with a large section of
the people. He seems also to have been something of an egotist but then so
are many politicians. I think what got the goat of a lot of people was that he
came from a privileged background but spoke as if he was "the common
man". Brits traditionally do not like this kind of thing ! I can respect a
socialist politician who was born in poverty and fights the education system
and his own inequalities to become a famous man, far more than Benn,
sitting in his Kensington home surrounded by hundreds of books, valuable
paintings and antiques, a fat wine cellar and all the trappings of his birth,
telling me how terrible it is that the Durham miners are poorly paid !
I am not saying he should not feel and act the way he did. Simply that it is
harder to respect this kind of fellow than the genuine article.

[David Johnson]

"I think what got the goat of a lot of people was that he
came from a privileged background but spoke as if he was "the common
man". Brits traditionally do not like this kind of thing ! I can respect a
socialist politician who was born in poverty and fights the education system
and his own inequalities to become a famous man, far more than Benn,
sitting in his Kensington home surrounded by hundreds of books, valuable
paintings and antiques, a fat wine cellar and all the trappings of his birth,
telling me how terrible it is that the Durham miners are poorly paid !"

I find this view almost incomprehensible. Benn never made out he was an East End Cockney from the slums. He always spoke in an accent that revealed his privileged upbringing. None of us choose who our natural birth parents are and whether they are well off or not.

What Benn had in oodles was empathy, a basic human quality that allows people to understand the pain and hard times that others are going through and campaign on their behalf without experiencing the hard times themselves.

Your view is similar to arguing that people get irritated with Bill Gates giving billions to charities and that it would be better if he was hard up and sent a couple of quid in the post. I don't think that is how the vast majority of people view Bill Gates or Tony Benn.

[Essex Lad]

David Johnson wrote:

> Admittedly, it is a slight exaggeration on my part to say "in
> power for decades" However it is true to say that his time in
> office spanned a period of decades.
It did.

>
> Secondly in the interests of accuracy you have missed out the
> year he spent as Chairman of the Labour Party.
I did because it's not a Government post.


>
> Thirdly, I am rather disappointed that you did not break down
> his time in office to number of days etc.
>
I was tempted... !wink!

[max_tranmere]

The journalist Polly Toynbee, who writes for the Guardian, was on TV last night talking about Tony Benn. I am familiar with her, I'm also familiar with how left-wing The Guardian is, so I thought she would be quite praising of Tony Benn. It was on Channel 4 News last night and she was debating with Diane Abbott, the left-wing Labour MP. Polly Toynbee was very critical of Tony Benn however, saying that because of him Militant Tendency, that very hardcore extreme left-wing outfit within Labour which caused the party no end of problems, flourished as a result of what Benn did and it took until Neil Kinnock becoming leader for him to throw them out of the party. She also said that Benn trying to become deputy leader, and subsequently trying for leader, split the party and helped keep them out of office for even longer. Labour was so badly beaten in the 1983 election that Tony Benn even lost his seat. The party arranged for him to be returned to the House of Commons however by putting him forward for the seat of Chesterfield at the by-election there the following year. I always thought he lost his seat in Bristol because of boundary changes, but I stand corrected. So he wasn't out of office for long and had he lost Chesterfield, very unlikely, but if he had, they would have put him forward for a seat somewhere else. You can arrange for people to be an MP by just continually putting them forward for safe seats if they are so determined to be an MP for decades and decades - hence Tony Benn being in the House for 50 years. Isn't is also interesting how Tony Benn played down his private school education, often leaving it out completely in biographies.

[Essex Lad]

David Johnson wrote:

> "In a diary entry on the death in 1976 of China?s mass
> murdering Mao Tse-tung, one of the worst tyrants the world has
> ever known, Benn wrote: ?He will undoubtedly be regarded as one
> of the greatest ? if not the greatest ? figures of the 20th
> century.?
>
> This strikes me as a typical tabloid newspaper type of
> statement. What tabloids do is trawl through quotes from left
> wing politicians and selectively pick quotes which do not
> represent the totality of that person's perception of another
> leader e.g Mao.

Irrespective, it is what Benn wrote. If a diary was found for Lady Thatcher or Lord Stockton in which they expressed admiration for Pol Pot, the left-wing media (Guardian, Mirror, BBC) would be all over it. You must surely admit that Benn was wrong on that view of Chairman Mao?

>
> For example I can include another Benn quote "
>
> If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or
> Bill Gates--ask them five questions: "What power have you got?
> Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise
> it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of
> you?" If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you
> do not live in a democratic system."
>
That's a reworking of a Methodist maxim about doing good where you can.

[David Johnson]

"I'm also familiar with how left-wing The Guardian is,"
They supported the Lib Dems at the last election. If you think Nick Clegg is left wing, you need to get out more Max.

"Toynbee was very critical of Tony Benn however"
Hardly surprising given she supported the setting up of the Social Democrats who split from Labour.

"Isn't is also interesting how Tony Benn played down his private school education, often leaving it out completely in biographies."
He revealed his upbringing every time he opened his mouth.

Not one of your better posts, Max.

[max_tranmere]

"If you think Nick Clegg is left wing, you need to get out more Max."

Looks like I should get out more then.