Mark Duggan 'lawfully killed'...

[David Johnson]

Well accept that you got it wrong about the fingerprint on the gun and then you won't make a laughing stock of yourself.

I am not making a political point. I am correcting your mistake.

[David Johnson]

" course the important statistic from the 8 out of 10 thought he didn't have a gun in his hand is that 2 out if 10 thought HE DID and one of them took a split second decision based in his duty to protect the public, officers and finally himself not to fill the quota of how Many black people I have to shoot which the same old intrest groups appear to believe."

This is incorrect just as Essex Lad's comment that Duggan's fingerprint was found on the gun was incorrect.

To clarify, the verdict on whether Duggan had a gun in his hand when shot is as follows:

1. 8 were sure that he did not have a gun in his hand.
2. 1 believed that it was more likely than not that he did not have a gun in his hand.
3. 1 believed that it was more likely than not that he did have a gun in his hand.

An overwhelming result against the evidence of the policeman who shot Duggan.

For all I know Max Tranmere was the juror in item 3 and voted on the basis that it was that nice policeman who shot the No 1 big time criminal and who wouldn't tell a lie because he was a policeman.

[Essex Lad]

Yes, I was wrong about the fingerprint. I admit it was an assumption that someone who had been in possession of a gun would have left fingerprints on it and not wrapped it in a sock inside a shoebox.

I'm not wrong about Duggan being a lowlife scumbag and that the world is a better place without him in it.

[David Johnson]

"I'm not wrong about Duggan being a lowlife scumbag and that the world is a better place without him in it."

This may or may not be true. What is absolutely the case is that it is not your place, my place or the police's place to make this decision and act accordingly.

[Arginald Valleywater]

Looks like some of his law abiding, church going "friends" are hell bent on starting trouble at his vigil.......maybe the Police could shoot them aswell. Bet the crime rates would go down in Norf Laaarndan.....

[max_tranmere]

I guess if someone's conveys the impression they are a bad person and are a gangster, and Duggan certainly conveyed that, then the Police should air on the side of "this man is dangerous therefore we should follow him, armed, as he is also likely to be - because there is a good chance he may be about to commit a serious crime". That increases the chances of crime levels being reduced in areas. The "he might seem like a bad guy but we have to view him as a choir boy because of lack of solid evidence and if he kills someone so be it" attitude is one that does little to reduce crime levels.

If you were to use your common sense David and read between the lines would you say Duggan was probably a gangster who had likely used guns before and might use them again, or would you say he was probably a passive gentle choir boy who helped old ladies across the street and volunteered at his local hospice? No brainer is it? And the fact the Police drew that conclusion was why they followed him, armed, and were prepared to use weapons (which they did).

Thanks to this episode, and the coverage it has got, stop-and-search is likely to be wound down yet further in London. The Police have been on the back-foot for the last few days saying "things could be better as regards our relationship with the black community", "we need more evidence if we're going to be carrying out stop-and-search in the future" and so on. Following the Stephen Lawrence enquiry report about 15 years ago street crime in London rocketed as Police had to pull back on stop-and-search. This is going to happen again following the Duggan killing.

I just hope that after the 'vigil' today in Tottenham that pastor guy and Duggan's aunt aren't seen in the media again. Personally if I had a relative like Mark Duggan I would have disowned him, not constantly go on about how wonderful he was. For his aunt to become like Doreen Lawrence (I have a certain amount of respect for her, but little for Duggan's aunt) would be terrible. I also heard that 29 year old Duggan had 6 children (thank god for the Welfare State, hey?). I wonder what sort of lives they will have.

[max_tranmere]

I will be solidly established whether armed Police were right or wrong in a situation if they were to have cameras on themselves filming everything they were doing. This has been talked about this week, and I think it is a good idea in general. What difference it would have made in this instance I do not know as they admitted Duggan had already tossed the weapon. Therefore a camera would have shown no more than what they verbally admitted to in the enquiry. The issue is whether the Police officer could likely have done anything else considering he only had about a quarter of a second to think about it.

[max_tranmere]

"Feds" is a term used quite a lot in certain communities in London to refer to the Police, if obviously migrated here from America, where the term is officially used to refer to a certain body and some people here assume it would apply here.

[max_tranmere]

After the 2011 riots someone in Tottenham made reference in a TV interview to the 1985 riots there. He said "the last time this area went up in flames they rebuilt the whole area for us, made the estate a lot nicer, and also built us a swimming pool complex. I wonder what we'll get this time". So basically communities are rewarded for rioting and the law-abiding people have to pay to have these places rebuilt. If I had my way the rioters would pay for the rebuilding of these areas themselves, and if that means working 60 hours a week building sea defences or breaking rocks then so be it. Anyone who causes trouble today in Tottenham should be severely punished. I hope this Duggan issue goes away after today and that his aunt and other relatives, who are either naive to the point of being retarded about what sort of person he was - either that or they know and are just pretending they don't - aren't heard from again.

[max_tranmere]

I hope there is no trouble this afternoon or this evening in Tottenham - the coming hours will tell. Anyone who does do it should be given a very harsh sentence.