Facist De Canio

[beutelwolf]

Well, Di Canio is not seeking political office.

Regarding Pol Pot and Mussolini (never mind Stalin, Robert Kilroy-Silk, Lord Such, Ronald Reagan...) I would not have been opposed to their appointments as football managers on political grounds, leaving aside the issue of their lacking professional qualifications. In fact, I would have preferred them in that role (even unqualified) rather than as political leaders...

Generally, what do you do with people with unsavoury political convictions? Shoot them? Let them work in the salt mines? Send them South to colonize Antarctica? Well, I'd rather keep them in a non-political job they are qualified for, letting them make a contribution to society.

[David Johnson]

You may have noticed that in British football as elsewhere there is a problem with racisim e.g. racist chanting, insults etc. There has been a lot of attempts over many years to deal with this problem. It is ongoing.

Di Canio declared himself a fascist, but not a racist. This is rather like the EDL demonstrating in the UK making fascist salutes and chanting "Pakis go home" and declaring they are not racist.

Di Canio should understand that Italian Fascism was partly formed to protect Italy from the Slavs in the north and in the pre war period it developed anti-Semitic undertones with Jews being attacked. So whether or not Di Canio believes that he is not a racist, Italian Fascism does have an inherent racist element.

Given the above and the fact that Sunderland lost many of its citizens during the Second World War as a result of Fascist bombing and fighting in the war, it seems to me that di Canio's appointment is a huge mistake and has rightly come in for criticism. People like Di Canio should not be appointed in very high profile jobs at the centre of the community in an occupation where strenuous attempts are being made to stamp out racism.

[beutelwolf]

David Johnson wrote:

[snip]
> Di Canio should understand that Italian Fascism was partly
> formed to protect Italy from the Slavs in the north and in the
> pre war period it developed anti-Semitic undertones with Jews
> being attacked. So whether or not Di Canio believes that he is
> not a racist, Italian Fascism does have an inherent racist
> element.

All of this comes down to: racism/fascism is not nice, and we don't want it.
The thing is then: what do you do with the people who are openly racist/fascist? I do not elevate football to the kind of lofty status that should prevent unpleasant people (racists, fascists, scientologists, paedophiles, etc.) from taking a job there.

You say, people in football want to stamp out racism from the game. What about people working in painting & decorating? Firefighters? The police force? People who create web pages? Is racism tolerated there, or to put it differently: are people who are racists tolerated there?

> [snip] People like Di Canio should not be appointed in
> very high profile jobs at the centre of the community...

That's the 'send them to the salt mines' position, good jobs only for 'pleasant' people. I see this as a small variation of 'good jobs only for OUR people'. That view is entrenched in British society ever since the Normans implemented it rigorously, and I bloody hate this attitude.

Besides, the argument referring to the bombing of Sunderland in WWII is very weak. (i) it was done by the Germans not the Italians, (ii) German and Italian fascism were ideologically miles apart, (iii) bombing of British cities as an act of war had no foundation whatsoever in fascist ideology (of either shape), it was merely attacking a war enemy; the atttack on Poland was ideologically founded, but you have to bridge quite a few indirections to link Sunderland's war-dead with Italian fascism.

[Sam Slater]

You make good points, which I agree with. But I'm not sure when David said, 'people like Di Canio shouldn't be appointed....' that he meant there should be laws to prevent him becoming the manager of a football team. I think he's just using the common expression: i.e you shouldn't wear socks with sandals.

I think criticising someone, based on their political views is fair game......as is the decision to appoint, or not appoint, Di Canio based on those views. Sunderland FC could decide that fascism is against the principles they stand for and believe in and you'd have to back them. Discriminating based on what the discriminated can change (musical taste, religion and political ideals), vs something they can't, (ethnicity, sexual orientation and nationality) is very different.........at least for the most part.

[David Johnson]

"I do not elevate football to the kind of lofty status that should prevent unpleasant people (racists, fascists, scientologists, paedophiles, etc.) from taking a job there."

You are welcome to your opinion but you are wrong due to the fundamental importance of football and the crowd element in British life. Have you ever been to a football match with thousands of people making racist chants and throwing bananas on to the pitch at black players?

"What about people working in painting & decorating?"

I can't recall being at a conference with 50,000 painters and decorators where they are making racist chants? Have you been at such an event?

"That's the 'send them to the salt mines' position, good jobs only for 'pleasant' people."

No, this is wrong and a misrepresentation. What you have clearly not grasped is that football, unlike painting and decorating, has been bedevilled with racism for decades. Partly I suspect because of the herd mentality that takes over at football matches and people shout and do things in groups that they would never shout individually. For decades, football has been trying to deal with this problem and to appoint someone like Di Canio who has admitted "I am a fascist" and made fascist salutes undermines these attempts.

As for the differences between Italian and German fascism, I will leave you to explain that to the morons making racist chants at football games. I am sure they will appreciate the nuances.

[David Johnson]

I am not stating that people who say they are a Fascist should be banned from being offered a job as a football manager, but I believe it is a very big mistake by Sunderland Football club and undermines the positive attempts to deal with racism in football over the decades

[beutelwolf]

Sam Slater wrote:

> You make good points, which I agree with. But I'm not sure when
> David said, 'people like Di Canio shouldn't be appointed....'
> that he meant there should be laws to prevent him becoming the
> manager of a football team. I think he's just using the common
> expression: i.e you shouldn't wear socks with sandals.

I did not read it like that either. My argument was more along the lines of 'if we find a bank manager that can save RBS, but wears socks with sandals and is a convicted paedophile - let's hire him!'.

> Discriminating based on what the
> discriminated can change (musical taste, religion and political
> ideals), vs something they can't, (ethnicity, sexual
> orientation and nationality) is very different.........at least
> for the most part.

That's dangerous territory, there have been court cases on the grounds of religious discrimination, and many politically active people rather change nationality than their political beliefs. With quite a few of the things you list the distinction can-change/cannot-change is not as black and white as you describe, more of a grey-scale as how easy/difficult such a change would be [ethnicity being the hardest one - Michael Jackson still had a go at this...], and we split it into black & white to make things easier for our conscience.

The word "discriminate" is emotionally charged though it means little more than to distinguish. Legal issues aside, there are cases where discrimination/distinction is appropriate and some where it is not - regardless whether the people who are discriminated against are born that way or not. University exams discriminate against stupid people, even if they are imbeciles by birth. We don't allow blind people to drive. When the NME hires people they will discriminate by musical taste, and so they should. When Sunderland FC hires a football manager they should not discriminate by musical taste (whether it would be legal to do so or not), but they should on the grounds of what style of football he likes best.

[beutelwolf]

David Johnson wrote:

> I am not stating that people who say they are a Fascist should
> be banned from being offered a job as a football manager, but I
> believe it is a very big mistake by Sunderland Football club
> and undermines the positive attempts to deal with racism in
> football over the decades

OK, I bite.

Or are you talking about footballing jobs in places (which may or may not include Newcastle) that have made next to nothing attempts at dealing with racism, so the appointment would not undermine anything anyway?

Or are you talking about places (which may or may not include Newcastle) that have completely solved the issue of racism, or never had it in the first place?

[Sam Slater]

[quote]I did not read it like that either. My argument was more along the lines of 'if we find a bank manager that can save RBS, but wears socks with sandals and is a convicted paedophile - let's hire him!'.[/quote]

True. And I agree with that argument. I'm just saying that it should neither be illegal, nor should it be a big deal if a company refused to appoint someone based on political beliefs. For instance it shouldn't be illegal for David Cameron to become leader of the Labour Party, but the Labour Party can discriminate against Tories when considering new leaders based purely on political beliefs. As you admit further down your post, there is room for certain types of discrimination (stupidity and University places, for instance).

[quote]That's dangerous territory, there have been court cases on the grounds of religious discrimination, and many politically active people rather change nationality than their political beliefs.[/quote]

Catholics discriminate on religious grounds when appointing a new Pope. I'm not saying they should be forced to consider applicants of other religions and non-believers equally, I'm just pointing out that we already have religious discrimination.......mainly by the religious. It's accepted.


You're right. It's not all black and white (I never intended to give the impression I thought it was). Which is why I think it's acceptable for Sunderland FC to refuse Di Canio a job purely based on political beliefs, but not so much for the people at the local florists to do so with applicants applying to be their delivery driver.

[David Johnson]

"Or are you talking about footballing jobs in places (which may or may not include Newcastle) that have made next to nothing attempts at dealing with racism, so the appointment would not undermine anything anyway?

Or are you talking about places (which may or may not include Newcastle) that have completely solved the issue of racism, or never had it in the first place?"

First of all my reference was to Di Canio's appointment to Sunderland. Having said that I think there is a more general issue here. Football has a unique position in many countries. Millions of kids go to sleep dreaming of being a footballer in the top division with the adulation and money that goes with it. Football clubs are often an important part of the community and in some cases owned largely by the fans. Many football clubs have community programmes which are attended not just by the footballers but managers and backroom staff too.

None of the above is true with regard to painters and decorators to use one of your examples.

As I have stated previously, there has been a big problem with racism in British football and currently there are big problems in many Eastern European countries as well. Right wing groups like Golden Dawn in Greece and the Front Nationale in France tend to grow in support in times of austerity.

So I believe that to appoint a stated Fascist as a football manager sends out the wrong messages by reinforcing the problems in those clubs that already have a fascist/racist element and also in those clubs where racism is not such a problem like Sunderland but where groups such as the EDL are active in the town. Given the community role of many, many football teams there is a risk of crossover/reinforcement from club to community and vice versa.

I would have the same attitude if there were strong Communist groups in the area and/or within the club that were beating up besuited blokes on the grounds that capitalist lackeys needed a bit of physical correction and Di Canio came along espousing Communist views.

Football managers or players should not be making Fascist salutes or expressing how Hitler, Mussolini or indeed, Stalin were just misunderstood and misinterpreted. Best to keep their gob shut and talk about footie instead.

As for painters and decorators, they can please themselves. In my experience, they tend not to have umpteen TV and radio interviews in which millions hang on their every word and it gets reported endlessly in the national and local press.