The strikes next week...

[Jonone]

He's also bunging ? at 'jobs' for young people which appear to be unsustainable. Okay, they may result in some work experience, some gains in confidence, they'll remove people from the register, but according to Robert Peston

"Next year sees a huge bulge in the volume of loans, that were taken out by eurozone governments and banks during the boom years, falling due for repayment. It is why 2012 is the year of maximum risk of eurozone meltdown"

so it could appear doubtful whether these opportunities for young people at the cost of ?1 bn will deliver what they ought to - good mid to long term prospects.

[max_tranmere]

Interesting comments there. I was a Civil Servant for some years at a large department just walking distance from Parliament Square, and I have to say that Civil Servants do get a very good deal. To have a non contributory pension scheme, where they put money in for you over and above the salary they pay you, is a good deal. It is guaranteed that you will get it, unlike in the private sector where the company, and/or the scheme, could go bust. The public sector has it quite easy compared to most people in the private sector, although there are certainly fat cats in the private sector who pay themselves crazy money from the company pension scheme.

Does anyone remember the furniture company Courts? They have gone bust now, but a few years ago the directors hadn't bothered to organise their pensions properly so they decided to move vast monies from the employee pension fund, which the staff had all paid into for years, into their own pension scheme and when those directors retired they were quids-in. This, bizarelly, is not illegal, and it depleted the workers pension pot so much that many ended up with hardly any money in retirement at all. I remember seeing on TV that it led to at least one suicide amongst the staff. The people who ran Courts where nasty fat-cat scum!

[David Johnson]

I agree with much of what you say, Jim.

What is beyond question is that the vast majority of public sector workers on say, ?25K gross will end up with a much better pension than those private sector workers on a similar income.

I guess where I vary with the Tories on this is how this difference is viewed. As expected, the Tories use a truly evil argument where they try to set one set of regular workers against another at a similar level e.g. "How can it be fair that private sector workers pay towards pensions in the public sector and these pensions are better etc etc." Needless to say they rarely mention their own "gold plated" pensions as MPs or the colossal sums in pension rights accrued by the well-off and subsidised by the general taxpayer in terms of tax allowances.

I would put the Tory argument as "Look these private sector workers get pissed on with regard to their pensions, why shouldn't you public sector people?"

The main argument that the Tories use for these pension reforms is that public sector workers pensions will become increasingly unaffordable. The Channel 4 News Fact Check has disproved this by getting the IFS and ONS to support the view that public sector pensions as a proportion of GDP will stay level or go down over the next decades. THe reasons for this are to do with the changes in public sector pensions that were made in 2007-2008 just 3 years ago.

So the question to ask is why are the Tories trying to reduce public sector pensions substantially even though it is estimated that as a proportion of GDP their cost will not be going up? I suspect the answer is the same as to why has my library been shut, my hip operation cancelled and my gran's care package reduced? In short, the financial sector collapse resulting from piss poor oversight by the Labour government, monumental incompetence in the investment banking sector and subsequent pathetic controls from the coalition, is being paid for by everyone but the rich.

As for private sector workers envious of public sector worker pensions - look into joining a union to defend yourself. Not possible in all cases I know but irrespective of which government is in control, membership of a strong trade union is a key factor in people being able to defend themselves from management onslaughts on their living standards. Onslaughts which neve seem to touch board level people who's salaries and pension packages have risen in the last few decades out of all proportion to the success or otherwise of the companies they run.

Cheers
D

[Jonone]

Yes Max, arguably the probability of the funds being misused is probably equal to or greater than that of the company going bust.

It's another example of 'We're all in this together', until you find out that you weren't.

[jimslip]

I think the crooks that ran MG Rover did a similar scam a few years ago, leaving their employees high and dry.

[jimslip]

Trades Unions are the only way employees can protect themselves against the old style traditional employer and as much as the Sun hates them, God help us if they were made illegal. However these days there are emerging more enlightened employers, like John Lewis Partnership who have found that if you treat your employees well, you make money.

This is why I can't understand why Alan Sugar is held up as a model of enterprise. He is in fact a business dinosaur, who cares nothing for service, nothing for employees, nothing for his products, his only mantra is, "Money, money, money!" I believe him and his ilk are a dying breed.

My view is that many in the public sector are very lucky to enjoy the pay and conditions that they do. Owever, as part of the "International Redistribution of our Wealth to the banks" scam, I believe those days are numbered. New Labour and the Tories are nothing more than instruments of big business, or UK PLC as they like to call it.

Both parties are under orders to "Save money" they are just wrapping the details up in different coloured paper.

[Peter]

jimslip wrote:

> Trades Unions are the only way employees can protect themselves
> against the old style traditional employer and as much as the
> Sun hates them, God help us if they were made illegal.

Whilst I agree with the principle of unions, having had to sit through quite literally hundreds of hours of FBU meetings, seeing the absolutely pointless crap they get worked up over and the hours they spend debating it, it's no wonder people turn against them.

By all means campaign for better pay and conditions, but taking action over an open door? Join the real world.

[sparky]

Going back 30-40 years my parents were saying those working in the public sector generally have a lower take-home pay than a job of similar level in the private sector but that it was balanced by a shorter working week, a greater number of day paid holiday, a pension, earlier retirement age etc.

Overall were my parents right or not?

Both my uncles worked for the Civil Service and died several years ago. However both of my Aunts are living very comfortably with a widows Civil Service pension on top of their state pension.

Certainly now IMO overall there is a case of public sector workers wanting to have their cake and eat it.

I have no company pension, no sickness benefit beyond the statutory minimum etc while the value of my private pension fund has plummeted.
I'm not happy but there is nothing I can do hence I have little sympathy the public sectors workers who want total immunity from any changes that will reduce their pension, delay their retirement etc.

[jimslip]

"I have no company pension, no sickness benefit beyond the statutory minimum etc while the value of my private pension fund has plummeted.
I'm not happy but there is nothing I can do hence I have little sympathy the public sectors workers who want total immunity from any changes that will reduce their pension, delay their retirement etc."

Welcome to the party, pal! Your job is to be screwed sensless into poverty, the public sector don't give a flying fuck whether you are dead or alive, as far as they are concerned nothing ever changes for them, they want their final salary
pensions and YOU MUST pay for it without complaint!

If you want an extreme example of the public sector allowed to run amok, check out Greece, trillions of Euros simply squandered on benefits, pensions and fuck all on infrastructure. They simply don't understand that someone has to pay for this shit! It's a totally alien concept to them! As far as they (Public sector workers) are concerned, if there ain't enough money to go around, then nick it off people like you and me, or just go and print some more!


[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1ece_1s4bkU/T ... crewed.jpg[/img]

[David Johnson]

"Overall were my parents right or not?"

Your parents were right in the sense that it used to be the case that public sector workers were paid less than private sector workers, but this is no longer case.

"Certainly now IMO overall there is a case of public sector workers wanting to have their cake and eat it."

I don't think this is correct. The retail price index has been running at between 4 and 5% for quite some time and public sector workers like many in the private sector have had pay freezes. In addition public sector workers had their terms and conditions downgraded as recently as 2007 and 2008.

How can that be termed "having your cake and eat it"?

I don't think the way forward for hard done by private sector workers is to slag off people on similar wage levels in the public sector but with better pensions. THe way forward is for private sector workers to try to get off their knees, organise and join trade unions and defend themselves.

Do you seriously think that any money that gets take out of public sector pensions by this government will be used to improve the lot of private sector workers?

Cheers
D