I've never been on Benefit, I've worked since I left school over 20 years ago, and I agree the Government should clamp down on work-shy people who are using Incapacity Benefit as a way of just having a long holiday and not working. I do think though that some genuienly deserving and justified clamiants will be kicked off in the forthcoming assessments, and that is concerning.
Apparently, from what I've read, most people launch an appeal after they have their Benefit stopped and they can keep claiming the Benefit while the appeal is pending. The Government want to stop this, so that while you wait for your appeal you have no money. This seems very heavy and will mean that some deserving people will more or less starve.
What do people think about these assessments, are they over-vigourous, and unnessessery, and if so what sort of other tests could be done that would be fairer? All it is going to take is one suicide because of all this, which I seriously hope doesn't happen, and the Government will scrap the assessments I would imagine.
One suggestion I have would be to increase employee rights a lot more so that someone starting work is very solidly in post, can't be sacked or let go without a VERY good reason, and therefore a person will feel secure starting a job. To go from a secure Benefits situation to an insecure life in the workplace would be very worrying because if the job suddenly ended the person could lose their home, therefore people are reluctant to come off Benefit.
Disability Benefit cuts..
Re: Disability Benefit cuts..
max_tranmere wrote:
> What do people think about these assessments, are they
> over-vigourous, and unnessessery,
They're carried out by a company who get paid for everyone they get off the benefit. They don't have to pay back the money if the claimant successfully appeals. How are they ever going to be fair?
I agree, the pretend disabled need to be outed, those who need it should get enough to meet those needs. A lot of simple changes could be made, also. (e.g. motability)
> What do people think about these assessments, are they
> over-vigourous, and unnessessery,
They're carried out by a company who get paid for everyone they get off the benefit. They don't have to pay back the money if the claimant successfully appeals. How are they ever going to be fair?
I agree, the pretend disabled need to be outed, those who need it should get enough to meet those needs. A lot of simple changes could be made, also. (e.g. motability)
We have need of you again, great king.
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max_tranmere
- Posts: 4734
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Disability Benefit cuts..
I've heard its a French company that's been brought in to do it. I would like to know how someone can convince them that they genuienly need to stay on Benefit when all the assessor has to say is "well you got to this appointment didn't you? Therefore you can work!". I have known one or two people on Benefit in my life and it seems to me the ones who are the laziest, and also the least bright, are ones most likely to remain on Benefit forever. People who have been signed-off by their Doctor and are 'disabled' will often ask their Doctor to attend the assessment with them, but this is not becuase they really need a medical proffessional there but because that person is the only professional person they know and can therefore assist them in filling out forms, as they can not fill out the form themselves (they can write, they just can't understand forms) and also to intrepet complex questions thrown at them by the assessor.
So the person has their Doctor along, and the assessor interprets this as "this person seems like a serious case, I had better keep them on Benefit, I mean they've even brought their Doctor to the appointment" when the real reason the Doctor is there is because the claimant is too dim to really understand what is going on. I know of someone who what I have just described happened with, and they were able to stay on Benefit. The few questions that this not terrible bright person did answer, and therefore could desipher, he just said "no", "none", "never" etc, to.
The questions were all about how much work he had done in recent times, or ever. The main reason he never worked is because he has no interest in doing so. He had something that he took medication for, but it was not so serious that he couldn't work. So to sum up: if you are dim and lazy they view you as someone who SHOULD keep getting Benefit, as the presense of your Doctor or a similar professional by your side, is seen as something serious and when that person speaks the assessor listens but, as I say, its really because the person is too dim to answer themselves.
How f***ed up is that? What I've just describved happend a lot with workshy people who are on Incapacity Benefit. The more dim they are the more chance they will stay on it. This person certainly could/can work. He even took pride in telling me that he watched EVERY world cup football match on TV or in the pub last year. Few others could say that as they are at work most of the time. He has an easy life, and he is the first to admit it.
So the person has their Doctor along, and the assessor interprets this as "this person seems like a serious case, I had better keep them on Benefit, I mean they've even brought their Doctor to the appointment" when the real reason the Doctor is there is because the claimant is too dim to really understand what is going on. I know of someone who what I have just described happened with, and they were able to stay on Benefit. The few questions that this not terrible bright person did answer, and therefore could desipher, he just said "no", "none", "never" etc, to.
The questions were all about how much work he had done in recent times, or ever. The main reason he never worked is because he has no interest in doing so. He had something that he took medication for, but it was not so serious that he couldn't work. So to sum up: if you are dim and lazy they view you as someone who SHOULD keep getting Benefit, as the presense of your Doctor or a similar professional by your side, is seen as something serious and when that person speaks the assessor listens but, as I say, its really because the person is too dim to answer themselves.
How f***ed up is that? What I've just describved happend a lot with workshy people who are on Incapacity Benefit. The more dim they are the more chance they will stay on it. This person certainly could/can work. He even took pride in telling me that he watched EVERY world cup football match on TV or in the pub last year. Few others could say that as they are at work most of the time. He has an easy life, and he is the first to admit it.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Max
"Apparently, from what I've read, most people launch an appeal after they have their Benefit stopped and they can keep claiming the Benefit while the appeal is pending. The Government want to stop this, so that while you wait for your appeal you have no money. This seems very heavy and will mean that some deserving people will more or less starve. "
Correct. This process of review started under the Labour government. I refer to one paragraph from the link below re. the success rate for appeals under the current system being used.
"Another key complaint is incorrect assessment decisions. With a success rate of 40% ? according to the DWP's own figures ? and up to 70% in Scotland for those who appeal against Atos's original decision, costing something in the region of ?50m pounds, this is a significant issue for all taxpayers, not just claimants. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepu ... ent-hiding
"One suggestion I have would be to increase employee rights a lot more so that someone starting work is very solidly in post, can't be sacked or let go without a VERY good reason"
Unfortunately with the current Tory government this idea could be best described as "pissing in the wind". Many of the "jobs" created by Dave and Boy George's government are part time, casual, maximum flexibility numbers designed to ensure that the people in them have the minimum rights possible.
THe whole focus of this government is to undermine employee rights as far as possible to use the jargon in vogue "free up business from red tape so they can grow the economy" e.g. making it much harder to bring cases for unfair dismissal.
Cheers
D
Correct. This process of review started under the Labour government. I refer to one paragraph from the link below re. the success rate for appeals under the current system being used.
"Another key complaint is incorrect assessment decisions. With a success rate of 40% ? according to the DWP's own figures ? and up to 70% in Scotland for those who appeal against Atos's original decision, costing something in the region of ?50m pounds, this is a significant issue for all taxpayers, not just claimants. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepu ... ent-hiding
"One suggestion I have would be to increase employee rights a lot more so that someone starting work is very solidly in post, can't be sacked or let go without a VERY good reason"
Unfortunately with the current Tory government this idea could be best described as "pissing in the wind". Many of the "jobs" created by Dave and Boy George's government are part time, casual, maximum flexibility numbers designed to ensure that the people in them have the minimum rights possible.
THe whole focus of this government is to undermine employee rights as far as possible to use the jargon in vogue "free up business from red tape so they can grow the economy" e.g. making it much harder to bring cases for unfair dismissal.
Cheers
D
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Gusset Sniffer
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Re: Disability Benefit cuts..
Yes, everyone can work but it's almost impossible to find an employer willing to take on disabled people.
There aren't enough jobs to go around at the moment !shocked! The government needs to help disabled people more!
The assessments are done by ATOS
What a claiment can expect
The assessment is done by a GP from another area at a regional health centre. ATOS get a fee as does the GP. The patients get paid expenses to attend. This can include taxi if required.
Incapacity benefit rates
short-term (lower rate) ?71.10
short-term (higher rate) ?84.15
long-term basic rate ?94.25
The old incapacity is being phased out to be replaced by
Work Related Activity Group up to ?94.25
Support Group up to ?99.85
There aren't enough jobs to go around at the moment !shocked! The government needs to help disabled people more!
The assessments are done by ATOS
What a claiment can expect
The assessment is done by a GP from another area at a regional health centre. ATOS get a fee as does the GP. The patients get paid expenses to attend. This can include taxi if required.
Incapacity benefit rates
short-term (lower rate) ?71.10
short-term (higher rate) ?84.15
long-term basic rate ?94.25
The old incapacity is being phased out to be replaced by
Work Related Activity Group up to ?94.25
Support Group up to ?99.85
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Forgot to say, Max
"The Government want to stop this, so that while you wait for your appeal you have no money."
Forgot to say that I think this bit is wrong. I would guess, but not sure, that people will be able to claim the standard income support benefits whilst their case is being heard i.e. less than the rates they would currently be receiving in disability benefit
If that is not the case, then, indeed people could starve to death. Not a very good pr step for any government to allow this to happen - disabled people dying in their thousands through malnutrition.
CHeers
D
Forgot to say that I think this bit is wrong. I would guess, but not sure, that people will be able to claim the standard income support benefits whilst their case is being heard i.e. less than the rates they would currently be receiving in disability benefit
If that is not the case, then, indeed people could starve to death. Not a very good pr step for any government to allow this to happen - disabled people dying in their thousands through malnutrition.
CHeers
D
Re: Disability Benefit cuts..
Its basically one step nearer to the end of the welfare state,which is what the tories want,just like they want the end of the NHS which they getting close to destroying. Labour cant hold their heads high over this either,Brown was stupid enough to put James Purnell in the work and pensions job before the last election,a guy who was and is a right wing tory and who should never been in a labour cabinet. He started this constant hassling of people on desability,the tories are just carrying on with it and upping the ante. I predict before the end of this ggovt,cash benefit will be replaced with food tokens,and the victorian age will be back with us again.
Re: Disability Benefit cuts..
1. There is no appeal they stop.
2. When I went before the panel of 'experts' the doctor 'expert' misdiagnosed what was wrong with me.
All well and good but years later I needed an operation on what was misdiagnosed to correct it because it was stopping me from working and the consequence of the operation was that I have not been able to do the work offered, ever since.
Don't take any bollocks from Labour it happened under them.
Don't take any bollocks from the Tories saying they will stop it. They can't because negligence by a medical panel has no redress.
I don't blame politicians for being fuckwits I blame fuckwits who claim when they don't have to.
The solution is for everyone receiving benefits to work, unless they are incapable of doing anything.
For example if I can sit at a PC and type this then I can do some PC work for the local authorities, charity or even business.
The work experience should enable work.
The failure to accept that this can be done is down to the belief that work has to be paid at minimum wage.
It should be seen as an enabling stepping stone, paid as such with exploitation protections built in (ie the council doesn't put everyone sweeping streets) but with specifics that if no work opportunities are taken sweeping the streets etc will have to be undertaken to receive payment.
The payment should continue until 'proper work is found', safeguarded with applications for jobs being made etc but with a stop in place after a period if the recipient is clearly not looking for employment.
2. When I went before the panel of 'experts' the doctor 'expert' misdiagnosed what was wrong with me.
All well and good but years later I needed an operation on what was misdiagnosed to correct it because it was stopping me from working and the consequence of the operation was that I have not been able to do the work offered, ever since.
Don't take any bollocks from Labour it happened under them.
Don't take any bollocks from the Tories saying they will stop it. They can't because negligence by a medical panel has no redress.
I don't blame politicians for being fuckwits I blame fuckwits who claim when they don't have to.
The solution is for everyone receiving benefits to work, unless they are incapable of doing anything.
For example if I can sit at a PC and type this then I can do some PC work for the local authorities, charity or even business.
The work experience should enable work.
The failure to accept that this can be done is down to the belief that work has to be paid at minimum wage.
It should be seen as an enabling stepping stone, paid as such with exploitation protections built in (ie the council doesn't put everyone sweeping streets) but with specifics that if no work opportunities are taken sweeping the streets etc will have to be undertaken to receive payment.
The payment should continue until 'proper work is found', safeguarded with applications for jobs being made etc but with a stop in place after a period if the recipient is clearly not looking for employment.
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David Johnson
- Posts: 7844
- Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:40 am
Randyandy
"There is no appeal they stop."
Dunno what you mean by this. If it means that failing the assessment results in your disability allowance being stopped, surely you would get the basic "able bodied" benefits that apply in your situation in the meantime until the results of the appeal are known?
"The solution is for everyone receiving benefits to work, unless they are incapable of doing anything."
Really? Have you seen the unemployment figures e.g. 20% of 18-24 year olds out of work? Are there piles of jobs out there waiting to be filled but peiple aren't filling them because kids are having the life of Riley on ?50 or so a week JSA?
"The work experience should enable work. The failure to accept that this can be done is down to the belief that work has to be paid at minimum wage."
So what are you saying? Cripples should get paid less for being cripples? I thought we had minimum wage and disability discrimination legislation to cover this? The reason a lot of minimum wage jobs aren't taken is that if you take into account stuff like tax, travel, appropriate clothing, rent etc etc, many people are far worse off on the minimum wage than they would be on the pittance of benefits anyway.
"It should be seen as an enabling stepping stone,"
We have seen all of this before with the internship process by which the kids of rich families work for nothing to get "experience" to make them more employable in their chosen area of work. More often or not, based on what I have read about internships, all that happens is at the end of an internship, they get replaced by someone else on the same basis.
Employers are already using as many loopholes they can to avoid paying even the minimum wage. Getting disabled people working for less than the minimum wage is the politics of the Victorian workhouse.
Cheers
D
Dunno what you mean by this. If it means that failing the assessment results in your disability allowance being stopped, surely you would get the basic "able bodied" benefits that apply in your situation in the meantime until the results of the appeal are known?
"The solution is for everyone receiving benefits to work, unless they are incapable of doing anything."
Really? Have you seen the unemployment figures e.g. 20% of 18-24 year olds out of work? Are there piles of jobs out there waiting to be filled but peiple aren't filling them because kids are having the life of Riley on ?50 or so a week JSA?
"The work experience should enable work. The failure to accept that this can be done is down to the belief that work has to be paid at minimum wage."
So what are you saying? Cripples should get paid less for being cripples? I thought we had minimum wage and disability discrimination legislation to cover this? The reason a lot of minimum wage jobs aren't taken is that if you take into account stuff like tax, travel, appropriate clothing, rent etc etc, many people are far worse off on the minimum wage than they would be on the pittance of benefits anyway.
"It should be seen as an enabling stepping stone,"
We have seen all of this before with the internship process by which the kids of rich families work for nothing to get "experience" to make them more employable in their chosen area of work. More often or not, based on what I have read about internships, all that happens is at the end of an internship, they get replaced by someone else on the same basis.
Employers are already using as many loopholes they can to avoid paying even the minimum wage. Getting disabled people working for less than the minimum wage is the politics of the Victorian workhouse.
Cheers
D
Re: Randyandy
What pleasure do people get from saying to a disabled person who is struggling with their life we will cut off your benefits unless you do this job, tell me what pleasure they get from it? Are they so mean minded they begrudge even a person who is genuinely disabled from getting benefits just because they could possibly do a job where they will probably be bullied or humiliated just so they dont have to support them out of taxes. To be like this you must have a really fucked up,downright mean mindset. Adolf thought along those lines,work sets you free and all that,he ended up working millions to death who should never have been working,perhaps you agree with that to?