texas students to carry guns

[frankthring]

Texas is to allow its students to carry guns on campus. Have you ever
heard of a more stupid concept ! Bad enough the Yanks let almost any
bugger carry a gun but to permit idiot American students (and based
on all the US "teen" movies I`ve seen, not least Priranha 3D, they seem
pretty wild/high/crazy and dim) this shows what a mess of a place it is !

[Robches]

Massacres take place in schools and colleges because they are "gun free zones", ie only the nutter has a gun. This should even things up a bit. If college students are above the legal age to own a gun and are legally able to own a gun, why should their rights be cutrailed by virtue of their being at college? The next nutter who tries it on in Texas won't last long. Of course, if all the information you get about the USA is from movies, none of this is likely to make sense to you, but my tip is that movies aren't real life. Think about it.

[max_tranmere]

I think people legally owning a gun, and carrying it around like they carry their mobile phone or their course notes around, is worrying. They will be quite inclined to use it if a 'tricky' situation arose - and they would feel it is ok to do so because the law said they could carry the thing. Look out for, tragically, numerous shootings occuring in Texas colleges over the coming years by 'straight-laced quiet suburban teens' - as the media will no doubt describe them.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]Think about it.[/quote]

I'm almost certain you either haven't though about it, or if you have you have no real understanding of your own conclusions, nor tested your own logic thoroughly enough.

For instance: "Massacres take place in schools and colleges because they are "gun free zones", ie only the nutter has a gun."

This is stupid. Firstly, the main reason why massacres happen is that there are people who some might label 'nutters'. Secondly that 'nutters' have access to guns. Those are the main reasons.

Letting students carry guns in college may indeed stop a 'nutter' managing to kill 20 students all in one go, but he may get three or four. It's likely that another one or two are killed through friendly fire when 30 other panicky, ill-trained, hormonal teenagers also pull out their weapons and start shooting up the place to 'defend themselves'. In the first Gulf War between 1/5 and 1/4 of American and British deaths were attributed to friendly fire - and these are TRAINED soldiers. I don't think I'm exaggerating in saying that that friendly fire percentage could easily double when panicky civilians, who have little training, are defending themselves against a 'nutter'.

And then we have to think about accidents because.........well.........because accidents happen. Nearly 3% of gun deaths in American are accidental. Mainly children and young adults between the ages 5-24. Most of these guns are owned by law-abiding parents who have a permit and supposedly would handle a firearm in a more sensible manner than your average college kid.

So, let's say your argument is that giving college kids access to guns stops people being killed (or at least makes for fewer gun-related deaths in schools). Well, I'd argue that more people owning guns on campus would mean more nutters owning guns. I'd argue that more nutters owning guns means more incidents involving guns and while massacres of 30+ would be less frequent, there would be more smaller instances over the year. Take into account friendly fire and a yearly average of accidents and I can quickly see the death rate would actually increase...........greatly. 17 year old Johnny catches Mikey fingering his bird round the back of the bike shed would result in some idiot pulling out a piece and someone getting killed rather than a regular punch-up and thick lip. Another school's footy team comes to play and thrashes your school, who then start taking the piss with 300 college kids in the crowd cheering on their team...........all carrying? Oh, I can see you've really figured this out, Robches. What did you say to frankthring now?........."Think about it." Hmmm.....

And why not move on to kids schools? Aren't you just as likely to have a 13 year old nutter as an 18 year old nutter? Surely then to protect 13 year old kids from 13 year old nutters with guns we must arm all 13 year old school kids too. No? I mean, they have just as much right to live as 18 year olds, don't they? Your logic must be applied fairly because if you think gun-free areas cause massacres then it would be scandalous to send kids into gun-free areas. You'd be a mentalist! How far back does this logic of yours go? 12, 11, 10 year olds? "Think about it", you say. Your problem is I have.

No, no, no. If you've a problem with people using guns then giving them more guns just seems a bit mental. It's the sort of thing a 'nutter' would crave. All them kids shooting at each other while he sits back with his bag of popcorn, cackling, and wondering with amazement how us 'normal folk' took his mentalist idea and ran with it!

[Arginald Valleywater]

Yeeeehhhhhhaaaaa I love America!! Boy you dissed me on Facebook, cue Glock 17, Heckler and Koch and all out war...

[Masie]

There was in law in Texas that said you could legally own a gun with a license but you had to leave it in your car in public places ie diners. a women went in with her parents for lunch and a man came in and shot twenty people in cold blood including both her parents. Her gun was legally in her truck. She may not have saved everyone and sure could have just got herself killed but if she'd had her gun the odds would have been better.

The thing about laws is that criminals break them, so we do get killings in 'gun free zones' and I personally see no problem in allowing licensed gun holders to carry. The other thing you have to remember is that unlike over here they are brought up with guns over there. They are taken out and shown safe and responsible gun use by there family and if you actually look at the statistics of accidental death by personal guns and friendly fire in the usa the numbers are tiny. That doesnt make it any less tragic but the numbers are tiny. I bet this law is not allowing little kids ot carry guns to school it will be for colledge students or seniors. To be makeing a transition to allow kids to carry at school i would assume that means they can already legally carry outside in public places, if they havent gone mad with power and murdered each other at the park, behind the cinema or at a house party, I think they can be trusted in a maths class and in the lunch room. I have friends who were in their school gun clubs and they havec such drummed in respect for the things because they were taught exactly how dangerous they can be before they were allowed to experience the joy of being skilled with one.

[Robches]

Sam:

I'm afraid you have let your prejudices overcome the facts. Your repeated references to teenagers show that you do not know that only people over 21 can have concealed carry permits for handguns. All this law will do is enable adult students to have the same rights as all other adults in Texas. If this leads to a spate of campus shootings in Texas then you will have been proved right, but I don't think you will be.

[Sam Slater]

[quote]I'm afraid you have let your prejudices overcome the facts. Your repeated references to teenagers show that you do not know that only people over 21 can have concealed carry permits for handguns. All this law will do is enable adult students to have the same rights as all other adults in Texas.[/quote]

Robches, you miss my points entirely. I'm not arguing about at what age the law permits them to carry concealed weapons. I don't care.

What you're saying is that gun-free zones cause massacres. Given that you believe this, how can you say a 21 year old has the right to defend himself with a gun but a 20 year old doesn't?

So, out with it: how do you justify sending kids into gun-free zones, without protection, if they cause massacres?

[quote]If this leads to a spate of campus shootings in Texas then you will have been proved right, but I don't think you will be.[/quote]

That's fine, Robches. You have your opinion and I have mine. The difference between us is that it does look as though I've considered the many possible consequences of young people carrying guns. I've come to that conclusion because all you've come out with in your defence is 'it will make nutters' jobs harder'. It's a good general rule that the more cars on the road the more road accidents we'll get; the more sharks in a given stretch of shoreline, where people swim, the more shark-bites will occur; the more drink you push down your gullet the drunker you'll become and the more guns in colleges will equate to more people using them in colleges. There are exceptions to this rule, of course, but what evidence or theory do you have to backup your side of the argument? Have you 'thought about it?'

The very best of us 'lose it' from time to time. We are not robots. I don't think I'm being too harsh on 21 year olds to say they are more unpredictable, cocksure, irrational, combative, wild, prone to take risks and that it's a time when fighting over a girl/boy is more likely. What you want to do is give the very people who are more likely to have these traits lethal weapons and stick them together on one campus.

Have you considered why most colleges, schools and universities don't allow students to carry guns? Do you think that cleverer people than us, before we were even born, had already considered what you're supporting as a bad idea?

As for the students you're so keen to arm, in Texas: the overwhelming majority are against it. They do at least have the brains to realise that guns, youths and college parties just don't mix.

[Robches]

Sam:

The 21 year old students are adults, and all this will do is enusre they have the same legal rights as all other adults in Texas. If this results in a spate of campus shootings your comments will be justified, but I doubt it. Universities and other places are only "gun free zones" until a nutter turns up with a gun, then they become "target rich environments". This law change may help to even things up, I don't think it will make things any worse.

[Sam Slater]

Yes, yes, yes.........I got all that the first time.

You still didn't give me any evidence (or your theory) to suggest more guns won't make things worse.

You also didn't answer my very simple question: If you think gun-free zones cause massacres then how can you justify sending kids under the age of 21 into these zones? A 18, 19 and 20 year old can fight for his country so why aren't they allowed to carry concealed weapons? Where does it stop?