British Army - Question for Rodders

[Deano!]

Me - "General Rodders Sir" (salutes), "Permission to ask a question Sir".

General Rodders - "Permission granted, you 'orrible 'lil man".

Thank you sir. Does the UK Army still use the scream-in-your-face method of getting the message through these days?

For years, British movies and TV have had a ball playing with the stereotype of the barking mad drill sargent screaming right in the face of a terrified new recruit. Michael Palin of Monty Python fame does a fantastic version of this. I was wondering if this type of training still takes place or if it's been replaced by a 'spirit of co-operation and consensus'.

I had a metalwork teacher at my old high school who was ex-army. He once yelled at me so loudly that I almost passed out - nor from fear but simply because his voice seemed to drill straight through my head!

[RoddersUK]

I wouldn't say so nowadays, according to my son who is a serving SNCO. But I retired in 1986, and I did meet one or two of those stereotypes. One RSM gave me the bollocking of my career in Singapore when I failed to return to camp which had a curfew on soldiers going home. This was to ensure that they didn't miss their flight back to Blighty. That was in 1968 and I can still remember it.
When I was a SNCO and drilled men the drill book, written by the Brigade of Guards, regarded it wrong to scream and abuse the soldiers. You got more from the men by being firm fair and correct. I never liked being screamed at so when I was in that position I made sure I didn't do that. A firm calm but menacing demeanour usually got results if you were going to charge a bloke. You didn't have to shout at him. You had QR's on your side and rarely did a bloke get off a charge, most especially if he deserved to be charged in the first place.
Most of the Drill Blokes I met were more like Colour Sgt Bourne in ZULU, admirably portrayed by the late great Nigel Greene. He had a way of instilling discipline without screaming his head off. One Australian friend of mine informed me that in the 60's the Australian Army showed the film ZULU to recruits to show them what discipline was all about. I thought at the time that was a singular honour and praise for the British Army, considering how the British Army always regarded the Aussies as an undisciplined bunch. Bloody good reliable hard fighters, but ill disciplined.
I had a history teacher who was ex Army and a sodding great big bloke he was as well and he used his wartime experience to discipline us lot. Mind you, in them days we needed it, and in later years when I understood what decibels were I used to wonder what readings he would return if he were measured. Bloody loud he were.

[Deano!]

Thanks for that. Interesting.

[beutelwolf]

> Thank you sir. Does the UK Army still use the
> scream-in-your-face method of getting the message through these
> days?

On a slight diversion from this: when I did my national service in the German army (a very long time ago) there was no such practice either. But as far as I know there was also no such practice there in the past.

I am not quite sure why, but the English language & culture seems to conspire to create a dilemma when it comes to tell someone off. On the one hand there's shouting & cursing, on the other insinuation & irony. And when you are facing some brain-half-dead dumbo the latter is lost on them. In German somehow, telling someone off is perfectly straightforward.

[RoddersUK]

I think the stereotype Army Sergeant stems from the days when the vast majority of soldiers were without any education whatsoever and just basic articles to be used by their generals. They had to be dominated to do as they were told when they were told. They expected nothing else.
The British Army had a reputation amongst the rest of the European Armies in the severity of its punishments, as did the Royal Navy. Flogging was unheard of in Napoleans Army but wasn't abolished in the British service, including the RN, untill 1860 something.
Makes you wonder though, why the British Army defeated the French at almost every battle culminating in Waterloo.
Actualy, I think it was because they were better soldiers and better led.
Sorry to mention it but Hitler and his ilk fucked Germany and the German people.

[RoddersUK]

Actually I think Anglo Saxon invective lends itself to certain phrases which soldiers from time immorial have used, or had used at them. I have had the following said at me at one time or another.
"You fucking wanker" this stops a soldier dead in his tracks as he realises his sergeant has twigged him.
"You useless piece of fucking shit" seems to say it all.
"Bollocks, you cunt" tells a bloke all he needs to know about where he stands with his sergeant.
There are so many more that it would take all night to write them, but Anglo Saxon invective is so descriptive and unique.
I understand that the French resistance used to abuse British airmen and soldiers who came into their area as escapees and when they retorted in good old Anglo Saxon the French knew that they were not German plants.
I once read a letter from a retired judge who was a tank commander during the Korean war and he described when his tank broke down. The driver was upside down in the engine compartment and covered in oil and grease and on enquiring what was wrong was told, "The fucking fuckers gone and fucked its fucking self"
Concise and to the point our learned judge wrote and in the vernacular exactly what the REME Sgt told me when he turned up to repair it.
I love Anglo Saxon vernacular and I aint afraid to fucking use it.

[Deano!]

RoddersUK wrote:

> I once read a letter from a retired judge who was a tank
> commander during the Korean war and he described when his tank
> broke down. The driver was upside down in the engine
> compartment and covered in oil and grease and on enquiring what
> was wrong was told, "The fucking fuckers gone and fucked its
> fucking self"

This reminds me of a quote from a book where a Scotsman in the Royal Navy is having trouble getting a meal outside normal hours on board his ship. He asks: "What the fuck does a fucker have to fucking do round here to fucking get a fucking feed then?" I think he was tired and hungry!

[one eyed jack]

While we are on this. A question to Rodders

How do you think R Lee Ermey fares up as a drill instructor in Full Metal Jacket then?

Do you think he got what he deserved from Private Pile? Assuming you've seen the movie of course and even more, what did you think of the movie? I'm bracing myself for if you think it was a pile of wank because its one of my favourite Kubrick movies.

Fire away sah!

[Storm]

Brilliant film.

"This is my rifle. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my rifle and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen."

xxx

[Jonone]

Didn't Michael Herr (Dispatches) co-author the script ? Kubrick was renowned for being meticulous and bearing these things in mind one trusts that it's fairly authentic.