Flat_Eric has got this about right, good post Eric !thumbsup!
Global Warming Is Crap
Re: Global Warming Is Crap
warren zevon rip wrote:
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Personally I'm always very sceptical about such "revenue neutrality" claims by politicians, and in my opinion any such government claims with regard to "green taxes" need to be treated with the utmost scepticism.
Why? Well firstly because governments of ALL persuasions are very good at giving with one hand and taking away MORE with the other when it comes to tax "reforms".
And secondly, you also have to consider that if they were indeed to abolish (or even just significantly reduce) petrol duty or road tax and replace them with new "green taxes", it wouldn't be long before they'd be faced with a serious tax revenue shortfall if these so-called green taxes were indeed to work in the way intended (i.e. force companies and individuals to change their ways and become "environmentally friendly" in order to avoid paying said taxes). In that case, the green taxes would have worked TOO well, and the shortfall would have to be made up by tax increases and / or yet more new taxes in other areas.
For these reasons, I expect that when these so-called "green taxes" do become a reality (and I suspect that it's a question of "when" as opposed to "if"), the best that Joe Average can expect is a nominal cut in fuel duty and / or road tax - and that these will then be gradually restored in subsequent budgets so that within just a few short years, not only will people be lumbered with the new "green" taxes, all the other taxes will be back to their old levels as well.
As our old friend Strictlybroadband (whose contributions to this debate you seem to so admire, warren) is always telling us: "don't believe everything the government tells you"!!
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Personally I'm always very sceptical about such "revenue neutrality" claims by politicians, and in my opinion any such government claims with regard to "green taxes" need to be treated with the utmost scepticism.
Why? Well firstly because governments of ALL persuasions are very good at giving with one hand and taking away MORE with the other when it comes to tax "reforms".
And secondly, you also have to consider that if they were indeed to abolish (or even just significantly reduce) petrol duty or road tax and replace them with new "green taxes", it wouldn't be long before they'd be faced with a serious tax revenue shortfall if these so-called green taxes were indeed to work in the way intended (i.e. force companies and individuals to change their ways and become "environmentally friendly" in order to avoid paying said taxes). In that case, the green taxes would have worked TOO well, and the shortfall would have to be made up by tax increases and / or yet more new taxes in other areas.
For these reasons, I expect that when these so-called "green taxes" do become a reality (and I suspect that it's a question of "when" as opposed to "if"), the best that Joe Average can expect is a nominal cut in fuel duty and / or road tax - and that these will then be gradually restored in subsequent budgets so that within just a few short years, not only will people be lumbered with the new "green" taxes, all the other taxes will be back to their old levels as well.
As our old friend Strictlybroadband (whose contributions to this debate you seem to so admire, warren) is always telling us: "don't believe everything the government tells you"!!
Re: Global Warming Is Crap
warren zevon rip wrote:
>>
Warren - we already have TWO types of tax under which "big cars" pay more: The first is fuel duty and the second is the annual road tax (or "Vehicle Excise Duty", to give its official and more euphemistic name).
Under the first system (fuel duty), "polluting big cars" tend to burn more fuel, do fewer miles to the gallon / litre and so - obviously - their drivers end up "contributing" more in tax. "Polluting big cars" are also penalised by the road tax system as well, given that they're charged according to engine size or CO2 emissions (depending on when they were first registered).
Taxes could hardly be more "progressive".
However, the so-called "road pricing" scheme that will see drivers charged a fee for each and every mile they drive (varying depending on the road and the time of day) are regressive in the extreme. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that these so-called "pay per mile" charges will be the same for everyone driving on a given road at a given time of day, whether they're behind the wheel of a Ford Ka, a 'Chelsea Tractor' or anything in between.
You seem to disapprove of "regressive" taxes. But what could be more "regressive" than that?!!
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Warren - we already have TWO types of tax under which "big cars" pay more: The first is fuel duty and the second is the annual road tax (or "Vehicle Excise Duty", to give its official and more euphemistic name).
Under the first system (fuel duty), "polluting big cars" tend to burn more fuel, do fewer miles to the gallon / litre and so - obviously - their drivers end up "contributing" more in tax. "Polluting big cars" are also penalised by the road tax system as well, given that they're charged according to engine size or CO2 emissions (depending on when they were first registered).
Taxes could hardly be more "progressive".
However, the so-called "road pricing" scheme that will see drivers charged a fee for each and every mile they drive (varying depending on the road and the time of day) are regressive in the extreme. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that these so-called "pay per mile" charges will be the same for everyone driving on a given road at a given time of day, whether they're behind the wheel of a Ford Ka, a 'Chelsea Tractor' or anything in between.
You seem to disapprove of "regressive" taxes. But what could be more "regressive" than that?!!
Re: Global Warming Is Crap
warren zevon rip wrote:
>>>
There we go again with same tired old argument (yawn): "If you're opposed to environmental taxes, you must be in cahoots with the big oil companies."
Utter tosh!
Of course the environmental pressure groups advocate "green" taxes, as they see car ownership and flying abroad on holiday as unnecessary evils that are about to destroy us all. It fits in with their ideological agenda.
And as for the political parties, it goes without saying that they're in favour of such taxes too because they're all falling over themselves in a desperate attempt to be "greener than thou" in the run-up to the next election.
Personally I'd have nothing against green taxes IF - and therein lies the rub - (a) the money generated from them were to actually be used for the good of the environment instead of simply vanishing down the endless black hole of government waste (a far more likely scenario, given the proven track record of politicians of all parties when it comes to squandering the taxpayers' billions) and (b) "green" taxes were to be offset by GENUINE, SIGNIFICANT and PERMANENT tax cuts elsewhere to balance things out (see my above post for why I doubt that this would or could happen).
>>>
There we go again with same tired old argument (yawn): "If you're opposed to environmental taxes, you must be in cahoots with the big oil companies."
Utter tosh!
Of course the environmental pressure groups advocate "green" taxes, as they see car ownership and flying abroad on holiday as unnecessary evils that are about to destroy us all. It fits in with their ideological agenda.
And as for the political parties, it goes without saying that they're in favour of such taxes too because they're all falling over themselves in a desperate attempt to be "greener than thou" in the run-up to the next election.
Personally I'd have nothing against green taxes IF - and therein lies the rub - (a) the money generated from them were to actually be used for the good of the environment instead of simply vanishing down the endless black hole of government waste (a far more likely scenario, given the proven track record of politicians of all parties when it comes to squandering the taxpayers' billions) and (b) "green" taxes were to be offset by GENUINE, SIGNIFICANT and PERMANENT tax cuts elsewhere to balance things out (see my above post for why I doubt that this would or could happen).
Re: Global Warming Is Crap
warren zevon rip wrote:
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That's a crass generalisation if ever there was one!!!
It's utterly ridiculous to say that road pricing is "progressive", given that the vast majority of UK households these days own (and in most cases for one reason or another rely on) at least one car - including all those "poor folk" who you claim mostly use public transport.
Bascially, if and when road pricing becomes a reality, virtually everyone - rich and poor alike - is going to get shafted, and anyone who thinks different is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.
>>>
That's a crass generalisation if ever there was one!!!
It's utterly ridiculous to say that road pricing is "progressive", given that the vast majority of UK households these days own (and in most cases for one reason or another rely on) at least one car - including all those "poor folk" who you claim mostly use public transport.
Bascially, if and when road pricing becomes a reality, virtually everyone - rich and poor alike - is going to get shafted, and anyone who thinks different is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.